Americans are dumb.

topic posted Tue, August 1, 2006 - 4:59 PM by  Paynie
Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
Do you believe in Creationism? No - 53% Yes - 47% (a recent AOL poll)

Seriously.

articles.news.aol.com/news/_a...09990004
posted by:
Paynie
Los Angeles
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • .
    .
    offline 39

    Re: Americans are dumb.

    Tue, August 1, 2006 - 5:15 PM
    Yeah, and I bet you think Darwin was right, don't you?
    • Re: Americans are dumb.

      Tue, August 1, 2006 - 5:20 PM
      Salil, which do you put more confidence in? Evolution or creationism?
      • .
        .
        offline 39

        Re: Americans are dumb.

        Tue, August 1, 2006 - 6:37 PM
        where have I ever given you the idea I have any religious leanings whatsoever

        but I asked first, I bet you think Darwin was right, eh?
        • Re: Americans are dumb.

          Tue, August 1, 2006 - 8:06 PM
          I believe evolution is a developing theory that is as close as we currently have to understanding the natural living world. I believe Darwin's understanding of it was imperfect. However, he was still a genius.

          Okay, show me my punctuation errors.
          • .
            .
            offline 39

            Re: Americans are dumb.

            Tue, August 1, 2006 - 8:18 PM
            Paul, for you to minimize your errors as 'punctuation errors' is outlandish.

            You clearly shift your argument rather than openly concede points

            Most of Bush's supporters have abandoned him ---> I expect his ratings are in the mid 20's ---> There was one poll that showed his approval at 29% ---> oh whatever Salil, its just bad math.

            Most of Huntington's Clash is spot on --> I agree with some of it --> I agree with 2 points --> oh wait, he didn't make one of those points --> Oh! Its just bad punctuation.

            this is real bad form, Paul.
            • Re: Americans are dumb.

              Tue, August 1, 2006 - 8:55 PM
              <<I expect his ratings are in the mid 20's>>

              Nice try. My actual statement was more conditional, having already realized that he was polling at 40%. I said something like "I would've thought his ratings would have been..." Do I need to repeat the basic English lesson again, and show you what the conditional tense is?

              <<There was one poll that showed his approval at 29%>>

              Yes, and that was the poll I read. What did I say? The last poll I read, he was at 29%. That is an uncontestable fact at this point, and your wanting to go over it again is assinine.

              <<Most of Huntington's Clash is spot on>>

              Don't lie. I never said that or anything remotely resembling it. Salil, if you have to lie to make a point, especially about comments that are written on this very page, does it ever make you stop and think, maybe you're barking up the wrong tree? No? Oh well, didn't think so.

              <<I agree with some of it --> I agree with 2 points>>

              I agree with some of it, including those 2 points (one of which I misunderstood). What is so hard to get about that? Imagine the whole of Clash is a big circle. The part of it with which I agree is a smaller circle inside. The 2 points (or really 1) is a smaller circle within that. Do I need to get a blackboard out to get this into your head?

              Bad form?? Look at you! For such a busy student, working and all, you've got an incredible amount of time to waste on irrelevancies.
              • .
                .
                offline 39

                Re: Americans are dumb.

                Tue, August 1, 2006 - 9:12 PM
                Wow. Ok, so you're now just completely a liar.

                First off, don't have the audacity to reference 'basic english' and conditionals when you completely misused them in that thread - wanna see?

                <If you recall, the 2004 NIE predicted that Iraq would see, by the end of 2005, "developments that could lead to civil war." >

                No Paul, it predicted Iraq MIGHT SEE

                not WOULD SEE

                <Yes, and that was the poll I read. What did I say? The last poll I read, he was at 29%. That is an uncontestable fact at this point, and your wanting to go over it again is assinine.>

                ahem. slowly now, pay attention. I never disputed that you said this - what I am disputing is the claim, that you are making right now, that THIS WAS YOUR CONTENTION.

                This was NOT your contention - your assertion was that most of bush's supporters had left him!

                <Don't lie. I never said that or anything remotely resembling it. Salil, if you have to lie to make a point, especially about comments that are written on this very page, does it ever make you stop and think>

                Different page, hotshot, but lets go back and remind you of what you said:

                <Have you read Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civlizations? I don't agree with everything Huntington says, but on this one I'd say he's mostly spot-on.>

                MOSTLY SPOT ON

                <I agree with some of it>

                my problem with this is that its a shift from your first assertion, that you think he's MOSTLY SPOT ON on this one

                this is a clear example of how not to defend an argument in debate - you SHOULD know this

                And yes, I shouldnt be arguing with you, but after 3 months of studying Arabic for 8-16+ hours a day, I'm getting extremely burned out.
                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                  Wed, August 2, 2006 - 11:05 AM
                  <<No Paul, it predicted Iraq MIGHT SEE >>

                  Salil, we've been over this a dozen times on this page. I overstated the argument, quite by accident, you corrected me and I readily admitted it. That must've been a week ago. Get over it. Unclench those jaws!!

                  <<This was NOT your contention - your assertion was that most of bush's supporters had left him!>>

                  Again, I overstated that as well, something I acknowledged ages ago.

                  <<my problem with this is that its a shift from your first assertion, that you think he's MOSTLY SPOT ON on this one>>

                  Sigh.

                  Salil, I'm done discussing that with you. The raw stupidity you exibit while flogging that dead horse, when you're clearly wrong as I have pointed out far too many times, have combined to show me the futility in any further mention of it. Redefine is with someone else.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    .
                    .
                    offline 39

                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                    Wed, August 2, 2006 - 3:28 PM
                    what horseshit - you did not 'readily admit it'

                    this is the first time you stated 'I was wrong' regarding this issue

                    and with the second issue as well, it was only in the past couple days that you conceded you were wrong here - but the point is that rather than conceding, you shift your argument a la the Huntington issue.

                    Let me provide a comparison:

                    'All American food is the best food in the world!'

                    'Well, American food south of the mason dixon is the best!'

                    'I really only think Etouffe and Jambalaya are the best foods in the world'
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    .
                    .
                    offline 39

                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                    Wed, August 2, 2006 - 3:37 PM
                    <when you're clearly wrong as I have pointed out far too many times>

                    Oh, and no, you've CLAIMED I was wrong, but I just keep showing you how your own words prove me to be correct.

                    You said he was mostly spot on.

                    those are your exact words.

                    end of freaking story.
                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                      Wed, August 2, 2006 - 3:43 PM
                      <<You said he was mostly spot on>>

                      About this: his 2 conclusions.

                      <<those are your exact words.>>

                      Uh, yeah, some of them anyhow. Of course, it's no secret why you like to pull out those words and ignore the rest.

                      <<end of freaking story.>>

                      Yeah, right. In reality, you're going to continue this until I finally leave this thread, so you can save the URL and point to it as proof that I abandoned a thread when I was "beaten." Your strategy is clear: don't concede anything, continue to deny any explanation that contridicts the one where you "win", and continue the discussion on such a tedious level that anyone with any sort of life outside Tribe will sooner or later abandon it out of frustration.
                      • .
                        .
                        offline 39

                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                        Wed, August 2, 2006 - 8:06 PM
                        <About this: his 2 conclusions.

                        <<those are your exact words.>>

                        Uh, yeah, some of them anyhow. Of course, it's no secret why you like to pull out those words and ignore the rest. >

                        The rest of the words don't imply, in ANY WAY that he was right about those 'two conclusions'

                        you dont even mention those two conclusions until days later.

                        your duplicity here is amazing.
                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                          Thu, August 3, 2006 - 10:58 AM
                          <<you dont even mention those two conclusions until days later. >>

                          C'mon, Salil, read the friggin' page. I mention them in the very next sentence. All this focus on the minutae is making you confused.

                          Here. I'll go over this once more, from a different angle, just so you can grasp exactly how dense you're being.

                          My exposure to Huntington goes no further than Clash. I have no idea what else he has written. When I said "I don't agree with everything Huntington says, but this I find mostly spot-on," you want to assume "this" means all of Clash. That way, you can use the narrative that I changed what I claimed to agree with, from "all of Clash" down to just 2 conclusions. However, given that I haven't read anything more from Huntington, and assuming that I find all of Clash spot-on, then where is the part with which I disagree?

                          On the other hand, given that I've only read Clash, when I say "I don't agree with everything," we can now assume that there is only a subset of Clash with which I agree. Right? Then I say "I find this mostly spot-on." What is 'this?' It's what is contained in the very next sentence, the 2 conclusions (one of which I misunderstood, as we have discovered). Granted, I could have used a colon instead of a period in order to be perfectly clear, but we both type these responses quickly, and I didn't anticipate you'd drag the whole discussion down such an absurd rabbit hole in search of some ephemeral victory.
                          • .
                            .
                            offline 39

                            Re: Americans are dumb.

                            Fri, August 4, 2006 - 8:49 AM
                            Paul - I understand what you're claiming at this point - but its complete hogswaggle. What you *wrote* resulted in a shifting of your argument, plain and simple.

                            and your obfuscation of this is amusing - you didn't mention the TWO conclusions until days later - what you mentioned were 'conclusions', which means at the very best you thought his conclusions were mostly spot on, which you then shifted to 'two of his numerous conclusion were mostly spot on'


                            yawn.
          • .
            .
            offline 39

            Re: Americans are dumb.

            Tue, August 1, 2006 - 8:19 PM
            Ok, so you know that Darwin was wrong. most Americans who believe in Evolution think that Darwin had it right. he didn't - does that make them dumb?
            • Re: Americans are dumb.

              Tue, August 1, 2006 - 8:57 PM
              <<most Americans who believe in Evolution think that Darwin had it right. he didn't - does that make them dumb?>>

              Not so dumb, just not entirely informed. Definitely not as dumb as the creationists. Because, end of the day, evolution is a sound theory. The average Joe doesn't know that evolution today is different from the theory as Darwin came up with it. Their not knowing this doesn't make them nearly as dumb as an idiot who thinks the world was created in 6000 years and that fossils were planted there by God as part of some Original Conspiracy Theory.
              • .
                .
                offline 39

                Re: Americans are dumb.

                Tue, August 1, 2006 - 9:13 PM
                Ah well, nice to see how intolerant you are, thanks!
                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                  Wed, August 2, 2006 - 8:07 AM
                  Salil.

                  I believe in science and research.
                  I think Creationism is a joke.

                  What do you believe in?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    .
                    .
                    offline 39

                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                    Wed, August 2, 2006 - 8:32 AM
                    you didn't answer my question, Paynie.

                    Are people dumb because they believe Darwin is right?
                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                      Wed, August 2, 2006 - 9:20 AM
                      No. The Theory of Evolution is pretty much settled as far as I know.

                      Do you believe Creationism is right?
                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                        Wed, August 2, 2006 - 10:12 AM
                        >> you didn't answer my question, Paynie.

                        Are people dumb because they believe Darwin is right?<<

                        yes. please. answer the idiotic question so we can move on.
                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                        Wed, August 2, 2006 - 11:06 AM
                        <<The Theory of Evolution is pretty much settled as far as I know>>

                        Paynie, Salil's trying to catch you in a gotcha. He wants you to say "yes, Darwin was right" when you really mean "evolution is right" so he can say "Gotcha!!" It's how really immature people while away the hours.
                        • .
                          .
                          offline 39

                          Re: Americans are dumb.

                          Wed, August 2, 2006 - 3:30 PM
                          Yes, again with the insults Paul.

                          How do pedophiles while away the hours, when not buggering little boys, Paul?


                          Paynie - the issue of evolution is FAR from settled. How evolution happened, what drove it, the factors affecting it, have little to do with what Darwin suggested, so all those people in America who think that Darwin is right are wrong.

                          Does that make them dumb?
                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                            Wed, August 2, 2006 - 3:39 PM
                            <<How do pedophiles while away the hours, when not buggering little boys, Paul?>>

                            Dunno, you tell me. And that relates to this discussion...how exactly?
                            (The Miss Cleo in me anticipates your response: "But..but...but, what does calling me immature have to do with anything?" Of course, my comment was simply to explain to Paynie what your strategy was, so he could give the answer in order for the discussion to continue. Directly relevant.)

                            <<so all those people in America who think that Darwin is right are wrong>>
                            <<Does that make them dumb?>>

                            Yes. Because, like many people, with the Flying Spaghetti Monster followers there is little distinction between Darwin's theories and evolution as we know it today. Their reason for dismissing it has nothing to do with the unsettled issues, and more to do with its incompatibility with their deeply-held faith. The fact is, while many questions remain regarding evolution, more and more are answered all the time. In the meantime, evolution provides an effective tool for explaining many aspects of the natural world, and is reliable in that it follows the scientific method, despite our imperfect understanding of it. Similarily, we still don't properly understand gravity, but because gravity doesn't contradict someone's faith, it isn't contested. In the meantime, lots of established scientific theories are based on our imperfect understanding of gravity.
                            • .
                              .
                              offline 39

                              Re: Americans are dumb.

                              Wed, August 2, 2006 - 8:12 PM
                              It doesnt relate to the discussion, neither do your puerile personal attacks.


                              Its clear that you can't even stop yourself from making them - I would suggest that perhaps you have a compulsion and that seeking professional help might be a good idea.

                              <there is little distinction between Darwin's theories and evolution as we know it today>

                              WHAT?! you've got to be kidding. this is laughably wrong. tell this to all the evolutionary scientists who devote their lives to developing a comprehensive THEORY of evolution.

                              But you're still ignoring the point.

                              Many americans are wrong about darwin, just like they are probably wrong about creationism.

                              the difference is that they ARE wrong about Darwin - but we cant prove that they are wrong about creationsim.

                              I think its pretty arrogant and self centered of you to insist that all devout Jews, Christian, and Muslims who believe in creation are without any doubt wrong.

                              Not to mention the creation myths of various other faiths.
                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                Wed, August 2, 2006 - 9:22 PM
                                >> I think its pretty arrogant and self centered of you to insist that all devout Jews, Christian, and Muslims who believe in creation are without any doubt wrong. <<

                                Does that include the Church of Scientology?
                                • .
                                  .
                                  offline 39

                                  Re: Americans are dumb.

                                  Thu, August 3, 2006 - 4:42 AM
                                  I dont even know what scientologists believe in - but I think we can all agree, LRON included, that those kids are cuh-rAZy
                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                Thu, August 3, 2006 - 11:03 AM
                                <<I would suggest that perhaps you have a compulsion and that seeking professional help might be a good idea.>>

                                Hahahaha!! Salil, it's no use you trying to pretend to have psychological insight into other people to mimick what I'm doing. You lack the emphathy to have any such understanding! But it's funny, so do keep it up if you need to.

                                <<<there is little distinction between Darwin's theories and evolution as we know it today>

                                WHAT?! you've got to be kidding. this is laughably wrong. tell this to all the evolutionary scientists who devote their lives to developing a comprehensive THEORY of evolution. >>

                                Okay, Salil, I gotta tell you, if your new strategy is to take quotes out of context like they do on Fox News, I'm afraid it won't work when the quote itself is written on this same page. Here's what I actually wrote:

                                "with the Flying Spaghetti Monster followers there is little distinction between Darwin's theories and evolution as we know it today"

                                The bit you omitted in creation of your strawman was "with the Flying Spaghetti Monster followers." I understand there is a huge distinction between Darwin's theories and evolution today, as I've been saying all along. If this is how you intend to score more points, I'd say you need to think about it some more.

                                <<I think its pretty arrogant and self centered of you to insist that all devout Jews, Christian, and Muslims who believe in creation are without any doubt wrong>>

                                Those who believe the world was created in 6000 years can be proven wrong, without doubt. That doesn't extend to people who believe the creation story without such absurd details.
                                • .
                                  .
                                  offline 39

                                  Re: Americans are dumb.

                                  Fri, August 4, 2006 - 8:52 AM
                                  <Hahahaha!! Salil, it's no use you trying to pretend to have psychological insight into other people to mimick what I'm doing. You lack the emphathy to have any such understanding! But it's funny, so do keep it up if you need to.>

                                  Yes, I was mimicking you, its too bad you didn't quite grasp the irony, and instead decided to go back to playground invective.

                                  really, youre getting pretty creepy dude.

                                  <Here's what I actually wrote:>

                                  whup. you're right - sorry, I misread that.
                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                Fri, August 4, 2006 - 5:25 PM
                                <<I think its pretty arrogant and self centered of you to insist that all devout Jews, Christian, and Muslims who believe in creation are without any doubt wrong.


                                Then that arrogance must go both ways. They claim that we are wrong. So, what is the difference between their claims and eveolutionist claims?
                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                  Wed, August 2, 2006 - 11:13 AM
                  <<Ah well, nice to see how intolerant you are, thanks!>>

                  What's intolerant? I completely tolerate all manner of what I perceive as stupidity, so long as it doesn't affect me or other non-stupid people. If people want to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, they can be my guest as long as they don't try and teach it to my son in school. But if they want to teach something which is demostrably untrue via the scientific method, and pretend that it's science, then sorry, I don't have tolerance for that. I hope you were able to grasp this distinction, since it's probably one you believe in too but are loathe to admit it as you think it will lose you a point in the silly game you're playing.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    .
                    .
                    offline 39

                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                    Wed, August 2, 2006 - 3:35 PM
                    <But if they want to teach something which is demostrably untrue via the scientific method>

                    Uh, Paul - creationsim is not demonstrably untrue via the scientific method.

                    You can't disprove creationsim.

                    And the rest of your post is just another personal attack.

                    I'm sorry people like me bullied you in high school Paul, but its time to let it go
                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                      Wed, August 2, 2006 - 8:32 PM
                      Salil, do you believe in "Creationism"?
                      • .
                        .
                        offline 39

                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                        Thu, August 3, 2006 - 4:43 AM
                        No Paynie, I think its absurd, but I also don't think its appropriate to assert that people of faith are 'dumb'
                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                          Thu, August 3, 2006 - 8:52 AM
                          You might not, but I do.

                          I also think that "fundamentalists" of any religion are dumb.
                          • .
                            .
                            offline 39

                            Re: Americans are dumb.

                            Thu, August 3, 2006 - 8:56 AM
                            Do you even know what 'fundamentalist' means?

                            <You might not, but I do>

                            great! the intolerance of the left strikes again!
                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                              Fri, August 4, 2006 - 5:28 PM
                              <<great! the intolerance of the left strikes again!

                              Blah blah blah....Fox news....parrot....lefty intolerance...
                              • .
                                .
                                offline 39

                                Re: Americans are dumb.

                                Fri, August 4, 2006 - 10:25 PM
                                blah blah blah, I dont watch fox news, blah blah blah, Paynie and Paul are clearly intolerant of other people's beliefs, blah blah blah.
                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                  Sat, August 5, 2006 - 7:48 PM
                                  Not intolerant.

                                  Thinking some people are dumb may be judgmental, but it's not intolerant.
                                  • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                    Sat, August 5, 2006 - 7:49 PM
                                    Hey Salil, tell me what countries you have visited and what traveling has done for you.
                                    • .
                                      .
                                      offline 39

                                      Re: Americans are dumb.

                                      Sat, August 5, 2006 - 11:57 PM
                                      <Hey Salil, tell me what countries you have visited and what traveling has done for you. >

                                      why are you asking this? what difference does it make where I've been or what I've learned from it? Your assertion is still rather unsavory and elitist.
                                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                        Sun, August 6, 2006 - 2:51 AM
                                        No, I'm simply asking where you've been.
                                        • .
                                          .
                                          offline 39

                                          Re: Americans are dumb.

                                          Sun, August 6, 2006 - 11:25 AM
                                          and again - to what purpose?
                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Mon, August 7, 2006 - 8:26 AM
                                            I'm guessing that you've travel quite a lot and that your life is much richer because of it. Just curious.
                                            • .
                                              .
                                              offline 39

                                              Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Mon, August 7, 2006 - 8:54 PM
                                              Yes, I've travelled extensively, lived abroad, and yes, my life is much richer for it.

                                              but that doesnt mean that someone who hasnt had the opportunity to experience, say, a 3rd world country or a communist regime up close and personal is 'dumb'
                                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                Tue, August 8, 2006 - 10:27 AM
                                                <<but that doesnt mean that someone who hasnt had the opportunity to experience, say, a 3rd world country or a communist regime up close and personal is 'dumb'>>

                                                Not necessarily dumb, certainly not. But I hope you will agree that a person who has never traveled is relatively uninformed as to the reality in other countries. Our country is currently having a huge, and at times quite negative, effect in the world. One of the enabling factors of this is a general ignorance of the reality of other countries, that is, a fundamental inability to put oneself in the shoes of others. This is best summed up in the saying, "I love my country but think we should see other people."
                                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                  Tue, August 8, 2006 - 10:40 AM
                                                  My first reaction when I heard about The World Trade Center being hit by planes was, "If only those people had been to the USA and seen what a great place it was", only to find out they'd been living here for several years and spending a lot of time in strip joints. D'oh.
                                                  • .
                                                    .
                                                    offline 39

                                                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                    Wed, August 9, 2006 - 7:11 AM
                                                    <There isn't a single person in America who doesn't have the opportunity to travel>

                                                    wow.

                                                    you really do encapsulate the liberal elitist, dont you?

                                                    I have known MANY people who have never had the opportunity to travel.

                                                    When I was in high school and worked with under-priveleged kids teaching them to read, their moms' were sometimes barely a year a or two older than me - 18 or 20, and had spent their whole lives caring for their siblings, they now had a baby, or two, and were barely capable of making it through the month, much less go spend time in Europe.

                                                    seriously - maybe YOU need to travel some in the US, Paynie.
                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                  Wed, August 9, 2006 - 3:49 PM
                                  <<blah blah blah, I dont watch fox news, blah blah blah, Paynie and Paul are clearly intolerant of other people's beliefs, blah blah blah.

                                  Then you all must get the same damn memo. "The intolerance of the LEFT" ?
                                  HAHA! That is the slime Swift boating of the left that FOX news and the right wingers use to try to turn their own intolerance image around on the left.
                                  What about the intolerance of the religious right? You make no mention of it in this discussion. Why is that? Rabid partisanship and right wing talking point parroting. I mean honestly, how is the intolerance of the left any different than the intolerance of the religious right in this discussion? In addition, when it comes to a general intolerance, much of our stance tends to be intolerance OF intolerance and bigotry.
                                  • .
                                    .
                                    offline 39

                                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                                    Thu, August 10, 2006 - 12:48 PM
                                    When have I ever denied the intolerance of the religious right?

                                    we arent talking about the religious right, we're talking about a self proclaimed liberal espousing ridiculously intolerant rhetoric.

                                    Dont change the subject.
                                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                      Fri, August 11, 2006 - 2:01 PM
                                      OK, so it is obvious that you are mistaken, but I will pull a salil and just call you a LIAR.

                                      So, what was the subject again? Oh yeah, "Do you believe in Creationism? No - 53% Yes - 47% (a recent AOL poll)" So, who is on subject?

                                      Thus we ARE talking about the religious right Salil. You will use any excuse to slime the left with your broad brush.
                                      • .
                                        .
                                        offline 39

                                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                                        Fri, August 11, 2006 - 3:56 PM
                                        <OK, so it is obvious that you are mistaken, but I will pull a salil and just call you a LIAR. >

                                        no, in fact its obvious I'm not mistaken.

                                        wtf are you going on about?
                                      • .
                                        .
                                        offline 39

                                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                                        Fri, August 11, 2006 - 3:57 PM
                                        And no Jeff, we ARENT talking about the religious right - there are plenty of non religious right people who believe in creationism.

                                        additionally, there's no indication here about their intolerance, whereas there's plenty of indication of Paynie's.
                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                          Mon, August 14, 2006 - 12:44 PM
                                          You were talking about intolerance in regards to the issue of creationism right? Well, pushing Creationism is a pet project of the religious right in this country and they are the creationists who are the LEAST tolerant of others beliefs. In addition, if you are talking about intolerance in regards to this subject and only speaking about so called intolerance of the left on the issue, then you are leaving out the other side of the coin that represents the intolerance of the religious right. Very one sided.

                                          In addition, there is no indication of religious right intolerance here because THERE IS NOT A RELIGIOUS RIGHTY HERE ARGUING THE SUBJECT.
                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Mon, August 14, 2006 - 12:49 PM
                                            >> RELIGIOUS RIGHTY <<

                                            you won't win the war of ideas with labels and generalizations. you just shot yourself in the foot.
                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Tue, August 15, 2006 - 9:56 AM
                                              Labels are necessary, how else would I quickly make it known the group of people I am speaking of? Religious Right. Religious Left. Creationists. Evolutionists. These labels are necessary for the discussion.
                                          • .
                                            .
                                            offline 39

                                            Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Mon, August 14, 2006 - 1:39 PM
                                            Jeff, I don't know what point you were trying to make with that mouth frothing invective, but the point remains, Paynie was being intolerant towards people who believe in Creationism, so I pointed it out. If someone were here taking a dump all over evolution, I'd take them to task for it.
                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Tue, August 15, 2006 - 9:53 AM
                                              <<Paynie was being intolerant towards people who believe in Creationism, so I pointed it out.

                                              Thats a lie Salil. You did not just point out Paynie being intolerant, you used it as a way to slime a whole group of people, paint with a broad brush, and to discredit anyone on the left. Clear Fox News Tactics.

                                              <<If someone were here taking a dump all over evolution, I'd take them to task for it.

                                              I believe you would. But what you would not do is say something like "The intolerance of the RIGHT strikes again". Now would you Salil?
                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                      Tue, August 8, 2006 - 12:25 PM
                      I repeat...

                      <<I think its pretty arrogant and self centered of you to insist that all devout Jews, Christian, and Muslims who believe in creation are without any doubt wrong.


                      Then that arrogance must go both ways. They claim that we are wrong. So, what is the difference between their claims and eveolutionist claims?
                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                        Tue, August 8, 2006 - 12:40 PM
                        Interesting also that Salil has no problem claiming we are wrong, or even liars, when our arguments enjoy far more support than the premise that the world is 6,000 years old.

                        Salil, your determination to argue with anyone about anything has you going in circles.
                        • .
                          .
                          offline 39

                          Re: Americans are dumb.

                          Wed, August 9, 2006 - 7:14 AM
                          <Interesting also that Salil has no problem claiming we are wrong, or even liars, when our arguments enjoy far more support than the premise that the world is 6,000 years old. >

                          Interesting that Paul apparently

                          a) can't read

                          b) likes to just make things up

                          go play with your imaginary friends Paul - because I NEVER said this
                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                            Wed, August 9, 2006 - 10:06 AM
                            >> When I was in high school and worked with under-priveleged kids teaching them to read, their moms' were sometimes barely a year a or two older than me - 18 or 20, and had spent their whole lives caring for their siblings, they now had a baby, or two, and were barely capable of making it through the month, much less go spend time in Europe.

                            seriously - maybe YOU need to travel some in the US, Paynie.<<

                            or visit them at a local stripclub.
                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                            Wed, August 9, 2006 - 11:28 AM
                            <<go play with your imaginary friends Paul - because I NEVER said this >>

                            Of course you did. How can you even attempt to distance yourself from comment you made on this very page?

                            Follow the links:
                            conservativepoint.tribe.net/thre...ce12c

                            Your conclusion is that I am being intolerant for stating that the 6000-year-old-world story is false. However, as we know, you frequently state that my assertions are false, or even outright lies, even when they're supported far more rigorously than the 6000 story. So what are you denying exactly?
                            • .
                              .
                              offline 39

                              Re: Americans are dumb.

                              Thu, August 10, 2006 - 12:50 PM
                              Of course I didn't..

                              try reading carefully:

                              "Interesting also that Salil has no problem claiming we are wrong, or even liars, "

                              I NEVER said that you were WRONG, I never DEFENDED Creationsism as being CORRECT

                              so, stop making things up.
                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                Thu, August 10, 2006 - 6:46 PM
                                <<I NEVER said that you were WRONG, I never DEFENDED Creationsism as being CORRECT >>

                                I'm not talking about this subject, I'm talking in general. You routinely claim that I am wrong or even a liar regarding my assertions that are far better substantiated than the 6000-year-old-world story. However, when I point out that this cock-and-bull story is demostrably wrong, you wheel out your contrived indignation routine. Can you say "double-standard?"
                                • .
                                  .
                                  offline 39

                                  Re: Americans are dumb.

                                  Wed, August 16, 2006 - 10:51 PM
                                  <Your conclusion is that I am being intolerant for stating that the 6000-year-old-world story is false>

                                  No, do you need to go back to reading the Weekly Reader?

                                  I NEVER claimed that you were intolerant for saying that Creationism is FALSE

                                  why do you lie so much? Are you incapable of proving your points without lying, Paul?

                                  <I'm not talking about this subject, I'm talking in general>

                                  Oooooooooooh, now you're 'not talking about THIS subject' ok - that's a mighty swell thing for you to point out after the fact.

                                  What are you talking about then, the price of tea in china?
                                  • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                    Thu, August 17, 2006 - 10:17 AM
                                    <<I NEVER claimed that you were intolerant for saying that Creationism is FALSE>>

                                    Here we go again. You call me a liar when it is easily proven that you lied.
                                    <<I think its pretty arrogant and self centered of you to insist that all devout Jews, Christian, and Muslims who believe in creation are without any doubt wrong>>
                                    tinyurl.com/rnfld

                                    I'm sure your new defense will hinge on the use of "arrogant" and "self-centered" instead of "intolerant." In rolling out this defense, be sure and explain why your descriptors do not apply to you when you claim that I am wrong for making an assertion that carries far more support than the 6000 year old world story. Please be specific.

                                    <<Oooooooooooh, now you're 'not talking about THIS subject' ok - that's a mighty swell thing for you to point out after the fact.>>

                                    That has been my point all along, and your inability to understand it has nothing to do with how I'm communicating it, and everything to do with your approach to this discussion. You're currently in the state of mind where you will find fault with any statement I make, even if it hinges on spelling or grammar, in an attempt to score points. This occasionally has you arguing in circles, such as now.

                                    Let me recap this from the beginning. In claiming that I was arrogant, intolerant, etc, by stating that the 6000-year-old world story is false, you made yourself out to be a hypocrite, as you often assert that I am wrong (or even lying) for making claims that have much more support. Therefore, if I am intolerant for calling bullshit on a story that is demonstrably false according to all scientific data, what does it make you to call bullshit purely according to your own supposition?
                                    • .
                                      .
                                      offline 39

                                      Re: Americans are dumb.

                                      Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:15 PM
                                      Paul - get a dictionary, arrogant doesnt have ANYTHING to do with intolerant.

                                      <be sure and explain why your descriptors do not apply to you when you claim that I am wrong for making an assertion that carries far more support than the 6000 year old world story. Please be specific. >

                                      I dont even know what you're talking about at this point - be specific.

                                      <That has been my point all along>

                                      To talk about the price of tea in china and never specify what you're talking about?

                                      what ARE you talking about?

                                      <Therefore, if I am intolerant for calling bullshit on a story that is demonstrably false according to all scientific data>

                                      Uh, Paul, science cannot disprove creationism

                                      they key here is Faith - if you argue that there is no scientific data that SUPPORTS creationism, and that you don't have any Faith - then you can say that you don't BELIEVE in it - and thats a perfectly valid assertion.

                                      But to say categorically that creationism is 'false' and that anyone who believes it is dumb is to be extremely arrogant.

                                      and as for your personal bs - when have I ever claimed not to be arrogant?
                                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                        Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:28 PM
                                        <<Paul - get a dictionary, arrogant doesnt have ANYTHING to do with intolerant.>>

                                        Salil, you've really got to hand it to me, my psychic abilities are really sharp today, aren't they? Of course, I could have gone further to predict that in addition to word choice, your next defense would be to pretend you don't know what I'm talking about.

                                        <<I dont even know what you're talking about at this point - be specific.>>

                                        You claimed I was -- what was it? -- arrogant and self-centered to state that a theory that claims the world is 6000 years old is false. There is a huge body of physical evidence undermining this story, and none in favor. In the meantime, you routinely claim that my assertions are false, when in fact there is no physical evidence to disprove them, and they rely on a solid basis of logic. Take, for example, my assertion that Iraq is currently in a civil war. My point is to point out that this makes you a hypocrite.

                                        <<Uh, Paul, science cannot disprove creationism>>

                                        As I've stated dozens of times on this page, I am talking particularly about that version of creationism that maintains that the world is 6,000 years old. Whole sciences of geography and paleontology, to name a few, exist in clear refutation of this idea.

                                        Faith is fine when it's regarding things that are not already fully explained through rational means. I have a great deal of faith in lots of things I cannot see or prove logically. However, I don't have faith in certain truths that have already been proven untrue by whole fields of study. (For example, I don't believe I can fly by flapping my arms.)

                                        I hope you're beginning to understand the point of all this. Having to repeat it ad infinitum is getting tedious. Perhaps this is today's strategy for not looking like a fool.
                                        • .
                                          .
                                          offline 39

                                          Re: Americans are dumb.

                                          Mon, August 21, 2006 - 1:37 PM
                                          No, your psychic abilities aren't sharp, your propensity to bullshit is.

                                          Paul "a bunch of nonsensical blah blah blah bloohey"

                                          Salil "wtf"

                                          Paul "I KNEW you wouldnt understand what I was saying! Haha! I'm psychic!"

                                          1) Arrogance and intolerance are two different words with two different meanings. Its not my fault youre conflating them.

                                          2) <You claimed I was -- what was it? -- arrogant and self-centered to state that a theory that claims the world is 6000 years old is false.>

                                          What I actually said was it was arrogant to assert that ALL the people of the Abrahamic Faiths were wrong.

                                          <In the meantime, you routinely claim that my assertions are false, when in fact there is no physical evidence to disprove them>

                                          yes, there's a ton of evidence to disprove them - like the dictionary - and it only makes me a hypocrite if I claim that I am not arrogant, or that arrogance is eeeeeeeeevil, which I dont, so therefore you have failed to use yet ANOTHER english word correctly.

                                          3) <I am talking particularly about that version of creationism that maintains that the world is 6,000 years old. Whole sciences of geography and paleontology, to name a few, exist in clear refutation of this idea> Wrong. God made it seem like it was a lot older. Disprove that.
                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Mon, August 21, 2006 - 2:14 PM
                                            <<What I actually said was it was arrogant to assert that ALL the people of the Abrahamic Faiths were wrong>>

                                            Oh. Well, since I never said that (my assertion only covered those who believe the world is 6000 years old), I have no idea why you said that I was arrogant. No, strike that. I know exactly why. It presented too tasty a strawman to pass up, eh?

                                            <<Wrong. God made it seem like it was a lot older. Disprove that.>>

                                            Here you go:
                                            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor
                                            • .
                                              .
                                              offline 39

                                              Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Mon, August 21, 2006 - 2:33 PM
                                              Occam's razor doesnt disprove anything, Paul.

                                              <Oh. Well, since I never said that (my assertion only covered those who believe the world is 6000 years old), I have no idea why you said that I was arrogant. No, strike that. I know exactly why. It presented too tasty a strawman to pass up, eh? >

                                              Paul, I dont engage in straw men, you engage in lying about what you actually said. You didnt bring up '6000' years until long after you made this statement:

                                              "Definitely not as dumb as the creationists."

                                              am I supposed to believe that you REALLY meant, just the ones who believe in the 6000 year old thing?

                                              whatever.
                                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                Mon, August 21, 2006 - 3:03 PM
                                                <<am I supposed to believe that you REALLY meant, just the ones who believe in the 6000 year old thing?>>

                                                Well, yeah. Considering it was in the exact same paragraph where you pullled the original quote:

                                                "Definitely not as dumb as the creationists. Because, end of the day, evolution is a sound theory. The average Joe doesn't know that evolution today is different from the theory as Darwin came up with it. Their not knowing this doesn't make them nearly as dumb as an idiot who thinks the world was created in 6000 years and that fossils were planted there by God as part of some Original Conspiracy Theory."

                                                Are you really pretending you didn't understand this? If so, I'm not going to try and explain it to you again, I'll simply write you off as stupid.
                                                • .
                                                  .
                                                  offline 39

                                                  Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                  Mon, August 21, 2006 - 6:02 PM
                                                  No Paul, you said creationists, and then made passing reference to 6000 years, you didnt say 'only creationists who believe the world was created 6000 years ago'

                                                  but this is beside the point, you are calling the majority of people who subscribe to Abrahamic faiths dumb.

                                                  thats arrogant.

                                                  if youre ok with being arrogant, thats fine, just admit it.
                                                  • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                    Mon, August 21, 2006 - 6:15 PM
                                                    <<No Paul, you said creationists, and then made passing reference to 6000 years, you didnt say 'only creationists who believe the world was created 6000 years ago' >>

                                                    Okay, Salil, I can see it's more politically viable for you to be deliberately stupid in this conversation.
                                                    • .
                                                      .
                                                      offline 39

                                                      Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                      Mon, August 21, 2006 - 7:51 PM
                                                      okay Paul, I can see that its more politically viable for you to be obfuscatory in this conversation.

                                                      You CLEARLY said 'creationists'

                                                      but IT DOESNT MATTER

                                                      you're STILL calling the majority of abrahamic followers 'dumb'
                                                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                        Mon, August 21, 2006 - 9:29 PM
                                                        >> You CLEARLY said 'creationists'

                                                        but IT DOESNT MATTER

                                                        you're STILL calling the majority of abrahamic followers 'dumb' <<

                                                        I have it on good authority that creationists as a whole, perform attrociously on section III of the GRE Biology test.
                                                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                        Tue, August 22, 2006 - 10:21 AM
                                                        <<you're STILL calling the majority of abrahamic followers 'dumb'>>

                                                        No, just you.
                                                        • .
                                                          .
                                                          offline 39

                                                          Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                          Tue, August 22, 2006 - 3:20 PM
                                                          <No, just you>

                                                          no Paul, you called them dumb, its your own words, why do you deny them?
                                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                            Tue, August 22, 2006 - 3:22 PM
                                                            <<no Paul, you called them dumb, its your own words, why do you deny them?>>

                                                            I don't deny that I called people who believe the world is 6,000 years old dumb. However, I'm not willing to play this game of yours where you deliberately pretend to assume that my comment stretched further than it did, when the paragraph clearly states what I meant. Sorry, define "is" with somebody else today.
                                                            • .
                                                              .
                                                              offline 39

                                                              Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                              Tue, August 22, 2006 - 3:42 PM
                                                              Thats fine - EVEN IF YOU ARENT LYING

                                                              you are STILL calling the majority of Jews, xtians, and muslims, DUMB
                                                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                Tue, August 22, 2006 - 3:44 PM
                                                                <<you are STILL calling the majority of Jews, xtians, and muslims, DUMB>>

                                                                Why? Do a majority of them actually believe in their own hearts that the world is 6,000 years old? I doubt it.
                      • .
                        .
                        offline 39

                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                        Wed, August 9, 2006 - 7:12 AM
                        <Then that arrogance must go both ways. They claim that we are wrong. So, what is the difference between their claims and eveolutionist claims? >

                        When on earth did I say that creationists weren't arrogant, Jeff?
                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                          Wed, August 9, 2006 - 3:53 PM
                          You notably left it out of the discussion between the two points of view, you were only focused on maligning the left.
                          • .
                            .
                            offline 39

                            Re: Americans are dumb.

                            Thu, August 10, 2006 - 12:51 PM
                            Jeff, where have YOU acknowledged the intolerance of the left? Where have YOU conceded that Paynie's assertions are elitist and intolerant?
                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                              Fri, August 11, 2006 - 2:07 PM
                              I was not speaking about intolerance on either the right or the left Salil. You were the one speaking on the subject. In addition, I said that arrogance must go BOTH ways.

                              In reality, HUMAN BEINGS can be very intolerant and there are instances of intolerance on both sides of the court Salil. But, by definition, conservatives are less open to change than liberals and thus liberals actually tend to generally be more tolerant than conservatives. Liberals are more tolerant of Homosexuality for instance. Now, much of the intolerance that is attributed to the left is actually intolerance OF intolerance. But you can't slime a whole political way of thinking because of one or two posts by people on this site. It is rabid partisanship that leads you to slime people just like Bill O'reily.
                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                Fri, August 11, 2006 - 2:21 PM
                                >> But, by definition, conservatives are less open to change than liberals and thus liberals actually tend to generally be more tolerant than conservatives.<<

                                I'm guessing you don't live in San Francisco.
                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                  Fri, August 11, 2006 - 2:28 PM
                                  <<I'm guessing you don't live in San Francisco.>>

                                  I have lived in SF for years, and I find it to be the most tolerant place in the US that I've been to. This isn't necessarily a compliment. SF has a culture of "it's all good," which sometimes results in the tolerance of breathtaking stupidity or other crappy things.
                              • .
                                .
                                offline 39

                                Re: Americans are dumb.

                                Fri, August 11, 2006 - 4:00 PM
                                Jeff, you most certainly were.

                                Someone on the left made some horrifically classist, elitist, and intolerant statements, I called them out on it. You then got on my case for not randomly addressing the INTOLERANCE of the right, when in NO WAY was there EVER andy discussion about intolerance from the religious right.

                                and then you claimed that in fact there was, because the POLL somehow indirectly mentioned the religious right.

                                1) it didnt
                                2) even if it did, it in no way referenced any potential intolerance from them

                                you brought up the 'intolerance of the religious right' and accused me of ignoring it, when in fact no one had brought it up until you just did.

                                do try to keep up
                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                  Mon, August 14, 2006 - 12:53 PM
                                  <<Jeff, you most certainly were.

                                  Wrong. I was responding to your "the intolerance of the left strikes AGAIN!" comment and demonstrating your use of anything to slime the left that you can. Get it? "STRIKES AGAIN" ADDED NOTHING TO YOUR ARGUMENT OTHER THAN AN ATTEMPT AT SLIMING THE LEFT. You once again painted with a broad brush because of partisanship. This discussion would have been better served if you had not tried to slime a whole political way of thinking because of one or two people posting here, wether they were right or wrong. This is EXACTLY what people on Fox news do. Exactly.
                                  • .
                                    .
                                    offline 39

                                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                                    Mon, August 14, 2006 - 1:41 PM
                                    Jeff, wipe your mouth.

                                    Paynie is a self-proclaimed leftist.

                                    He is intolerant.

                                    The intolerance of the left strikes again.

                                    The left always tries to portray itself as the tolerant group, but as we have seen here today, that portrayal is simply fiction.
                                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                      Mon, August 14, 2006 - 2:36 PM
                                      hahahaha...one person determines the rest of a crowd?

                                      thats a hell of an argument even for you, salil.
                                      • .
                                        .
                                        offline 39

                                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                                        Mon, August 14, 2006 - 6:43 PM
                                        I never said one person determines the rest Gerbil. its an ongoing pattern.
                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                          Tue, August 15, 2006 - 10:00 AM
                                          There is no pattern. It is the Fox News tactic of finding indivuduals on the left who are intolerant and then using them to paint a whole group of people who are generally extremely tolerant. What has the left worked for? How about racial tolerance, womens rights, gay rights....the list is endless.... How can you slime a whole group of people as intolerant when it is the liberal progressives who have advanced tolerance in our country?
                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Tue, August 15, 2006 - 10:02 AM
                                            P.S. Salil, this "Frothing at the Mouth" is just another Salil slime tactic of yours, it adds nothing to the discussion except for you to try to discredit my words based on things other than their content. I am not angry. I am not frothy. I am making my points in a very calm and logical manner.
                                          • .
                                            .
                                            offline 39

                                            Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Wed, August 16, 2006 - 11:05 PM
                                            <There is no pattern. It is the Fox News tactic of finding indivuduals on the left who are intolerant and then using them to paint a whole group of people who are generally extremely tolerant. What has the left worked for? How about racial tolerance, womens rights, gay rights....the list is endless.... How can you slime a whole group of people as intolerant when it is the liberal progressives who have advanced tolerance in our country? >

                                            Oh what self aggrandizement.

                                            You are all so hypocritical its unbelievable. Rather than attacking Paynie for being so unbelievably elitist and intolerant, you're all creating a huge straw man so you can attack me.

                                            I *DID NOT* claim all leftists were intolerant

                                            Jeff, you MOST CERTAINLY have made scathing generalizations about conservatives, and are doing it in this thread right here.

                                            And as far as your whole BS tirade about the Left doing all this good, sorry buddy, you're wrong.

                                            Lincoln was on the RIGHT, and he was very CONSERVATIVE president

                                            and he freed the slaves.

                                            Oh, and guess who gave women the right to vote?

                                            The Right.

                                            Who dwarfed the civil rights progress of LBJ by increasing School desegregation, starting School Bussing projects, AFFIRMATIVE ACTION in Hiring for minorities, women, the elderly, the handicapped? Who gave the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission teeth? Who was the first president to establish federal assistance for Minority Business owners, from African Americans to Native Americans, to women?

                                            Nixon. Oh, and guess what, he was on the Right.

                                            Who passed the Americans with Disabilities Act?

                                            Oh, Bush Sr. He was on the Right as well.

                                            So, step down off your high horse and eat crow.
                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Thu, August 17, 2006 - 12:43 PM
                                              <<If someone were here taking a dump all over evolution, I'd take them to task for it.

                                              I believe you would. But what you would not do is say something like "The intolerance of the RIGHT strikes again". Now would you Salil?
                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:08 PM
                                              A generalization about Conservatives being *gasp* conservative is a correct generalization. To say that Liberals in general are intolerant is not accurate and goes against the definition of liberal.

                                              Now, conservative leaders have advanced the cause of tolerance. But who was resisting that change? Generally Conservatives. Conservative traits are those that are resistent to change. Liberals are open to change by definition. Thus it was a liberal trate of Nixons, not a conservative one. In addition, it was the liberal grass roots movement that drove conservative leaders to make certain decisions. Thus it was a partnership, but it was still advanced and driven by Liberal activists. From the civil rights movement to womens suffrage, they were ALL liberal movements.

                                              Now lets look at the definition of Liberal at Wikepedia. Look closely Salil, notice where it says the following:

                                              "Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value.[1] Liberalism has its roots in the Western Enlightenment, but the term now encompasses a diversity of political thought.
                                              Broadly speaking, contemporary liberalism emphasizes individual rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals,"

                                              en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

                                              Now step down....and eat Dick.......Cheney...




                                              • .
                                                .
                                                offline 39

                                                Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                Mon, August 21, 2006 - 2:47 PM
                                                Jeff, you really need to get a solid understanding of the words you're using.

                                                or maybe you do, and you're just INTENTIONALY equivocating?

                                                Which is it?


                                                Your entire rebuttal here is NOT based on defending your assertion about RIGHT v LEFT, you've shited it to LIBERAL v CONSERVATIVE (and not as PARTY affiliations, but as adjectival definitions) and youre STILL conflating 'LIBERAL' party affiliation with LIBERALISM

                                                <they were ALL liberal movements>

                                                No, they were LIBERALIST movements

                                                and I dont care what Wiki says - LIBERAL the PARTY AFFILIATION you're refering IS NOT THE SAME AS LIBERALISM good fucking grief!

                                                you're clearly equivocating, building a fallacious argument, and BLATANTLY shifting your assertion

                                                <Now step down....and eat Dick.......Cheney... >

                                                Wow, how devilishly clever, jeff. Ibet you're the only boy in the third grade who came up with that one all by himself.
                                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                  Tue, August 22, 2006 - 11:54 AM
                                                  You hopeless Salil. The definitions are clear. I was not referring to the Liberal party. The liberal party was just mentioned in one of the definitions. Get it straight.
                                                  • .
                                                    .
                                                    offline 39

                                                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                    Tue, August 22, 2006 - 3:23 PM
                                                    Ok, then if you werent refering to the Liberal party, then what the HELL are you claiming?

                                                    that the LEFT is the only party that promotes liberalist ideals?

                                                    I already proved that to be flat out wrong.

                                                    you're using equivocation to contruct a fallacious argument. its clear.
                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:10 PM
                                              <<Paynie was being intolerant towards people who believe in Creationism, so I pointed it out.

                                              Thats a lie Salil. You did not just point out Paynie being intolerant, you used it as a way to slime a whole group of people, paint with a broad brush, and to discredit anyone on the left. Clear Fox News Tactics.
                                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                      Mon, August 14, 2006 - 2:57 PM
                                      <<The left always tries to portray itself as the tolerant group, but as we have seen here today, that portrayal is simply fiction.>>

                                      The left is generally tolerant, however everyone is human, and we all at times fail to live up to our lofiter goals.

                                      On the other hand, Republicans aren't burdened with this challenge. Repubs portray themselves as ultimately selfish, bloodthirsty, tactless, and with an absolute dearth of compassion for others outside their most immediate social circles. That is why people like O'Reilly and Coulter can rant away like complete psychopaths, calling for the execution of this guy or the torture of that guy, while having little effect on the overall image of Republicanism.
                                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                        Mon, August 14, 2006 - 3:09 PM
                                        >> Repubs portray themselves as ultimately selfish, bloodthirsty, tactless, and with an absolute dearth of compassion for others outside their most immediate social circles. <<

                                        what a wonderful stereotype? doesn't really describe me or any conservative friends that come to mind but I guess it helps simplify things.

                                        >> That is why people like O'Reilly and Coulter can rant away like complete psychopaths, calling for the execution of this guy or the torture of that guy, while having little effect on the overall image of Republicanism. <<

                                        and elements in the democrat party are willing to undermine moderate and responsible voices from the black community and place al sharpton front and center at their primary. is that honor? is that the example that should make me hold my head down in shame? ha! please. both parties have their brown shirts and are not above throwing out a little red meat to fire up the troops.
                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                          Mon, August 14, 2006 - 3:20 PM
                                          <<what a wonderful stereotype? doesn't really describe me or any conservative friends that come to mind but I guess it helps simplify things.>>

                                          Arthur, while I don't know you personally, my stereotype describes every single person I've met who voted for Bush the 2nd time around (after his true nature was out in the open for all to see). Of course, some of those people hold their selfishness a bit close to the breast, but when they're faced with the horrible consequences of their support for the world's most dangerous and hated man, they typically fall back on a self-professed abject lack of concern for anything not happening under their own roof. This includes the deaths of thousands of innocent children and torture, among other things.

                                          <<and elements in the democrat party are willing to undermine moderate and responsible voices from the black community and place al sharpton front and center at their primary.>>

                                          I missed Al Sharpton as ever being considered a serious contender for the nomination by any dems, so I'm not quite sure what you mean by "front and center." It looked more like "back of the bus" to me.

                                          However, during his presidential campaign, I never heard anything come out of him that sounded the least bit unreasonable, or anything to suggest that he wouldn't be an infinitely better choice for president than Chimpy McFlightsuit. Granted, I didn't hang on his every word, so if you've got an example of something truly crazy he said while running for the democratic nomination, let's see it.

                                          <<both parties have their brown shirts and are not above throwing out a little red meat to fire up the troops.>>

                                          As has been commented on many, many times before, the dems are far more civil and tactful in this regard, which may be why they've been losing elections of late. For every Durbin who compares behavior in Iraq to behavior in gulags (a fair comparison), you've got two or three Coulters or Robertsons who openly call for the execution of some public figure, or talk the praises of killing kids. Like this:
                                          www.blackfive.net/main/2006...tues_.html

                                          You wouldn't find a democrat reveling in infantcide, I can tell you that.
                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Mon, August 14, 2006 - 3:47 PM
                                            >> Arthur, while I don't know you personally, my stereotype describes every single person I've met who voted for Bush the 2nd time around (after his true nature was out in the open for all to see). <<

                                            I'm a Republican that didn't vote for Bush the second time. However, very close friends of mine did. There is a belief that the war and suffering in Iraq is a necessary evil intended to "fix" a problem rather than allow it to linger. I don't agree with that line of reasoning but I'm not willing or qualified to accuse everyone of holding that belief of being "selfish."
                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Mon, August 14, 2006 - 3:55 PM
                                              <<I'm a Republican that didn't vote for Bush the second time.>>

                                              Good for you! I knew there was a reason I liked you.

                                              <<There is a belief that the war and suffering in Iraq is a necessary evil intended to "fix" a problem rather than allow it to linger. I don't agree with that line of reasoning but I'm not willing or qualified to accuse everyone of holding that belief of being "selfish.">>

                                              I feel willing and qualified to do exactly that. These "can't make an omlete without breaking eggs" people are placing the value of Iraqi lives at far, far less than they would place the lives of people they know. Those who are fully informed understand that we are in Iraq as a result of bad intel and a whole bunch of bad assumptions, and the chaos and death we're creating are not serving a higher cause. (In fact, they're serving the terrorists more than anyone else, but I digress.)

                                              To show the disparity in values of lives between Iraqis and Westerners, I point you to the so-called liberal media, that dedicates months to a missing blonde girl in Aruba, while providing 1 or 2 column inches to the 50+ Iraqis who were killed today.
                                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                Mon, August 14, 2006 - 4:51 PM
                                                >> I feel willing and qualified to do exactly that. These "can't make an omlete without breaking eggs" people are placing the value of Iraqi lives at far, far less than they would place the lives of people they know. <<

                                                a few well-placed bullets may have saved thousands of lives in Rhwanda and surely thousands of Bosnians and Kossovars are now alive because a few well-placed bombs. war is horrible but sometimes the ends do justify the means.
                                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                  Mon, August 14, 2006 - 5:14 PM
                                                  <<war is horrible but sometimes the ends do justify the means.>>

                                                  Tentatively agreed. However, the burden of proof that war, with all its attending attrocities and damage to infrastructure, does justify the means on a case-by-case basis, is huge. In the case of Bush's war, that burden has not been met, which is something I'm quick to point out to Bush's supporters. Their apathy (and that's exactly what it is) towards any such high-minded criteria reveals a worldview where the lives of strangers -- especially brown strangers -- is worth almost nothing.
                                      • .
                                        .
                                        offline 39

                                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                                        Mon, August 14, 2006 - 6:44 PM
                                        Hey Jeff, when are you going to chastise Paul for painting with such a broad brush.
                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                          Mon, August 14, 2006 - 8:33 PM
                                          I didn't paint with a broad brush. I painted with a very precise one. It just happened to get paint on a whole bunch of people, who earned it.
                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                          Tue, August 15, 2006 - 10:13 AM
                                          Hold your horses Tex, give me a chance to read it.

                                          Bad Paul....baaaaad Paul! LOL!

                                          In reality, Paul is speaking in gereralities based on the examples of a whole group of people that are highly influential and at the core of the Conservative Movement, not just one or two Joe-Blows putting in their two cents worth. But I don't think you can paint the whole of the conservatives with that brush.
                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Tue, August 15, 2006 - 10:37 AM
                                            <<But I don't think you can paint the whole of the conservatives with that brush.>>

                                            I'm not painting conservatives, I'm painting Bush's 2nd term supporters. And my comments are not meant to be taken as generalities, but as specific descriptors based on each and every Bush supporter I've spoken to. Not one exception exists in my experience: not one.

                                            Ultimately, support for Bush in his 2nd term can be traced directly back to a horrible selfishness that only manages to appear otherwise due to the vast divide of geography and socioeconomics which keeps these people from separated from the true consequences of their actions. For example, if the disaster in Iraq is not unfolding right in front of them in their living rooms, they can easily switch to Fox News and pretend that they're still the liberators from WW2. If the wholesale corruption occurring at the hands of republicans eventually becomes apparent, they can simply say "Clinton got a blowjob" and walk away feeling that they are not in fact supporting the most corrupt regime ever to take command of the US.

                                            Granted, my sample is not exhaustive enough to yield a reasonable margin of error, but it does have the virtue of being 100% consistent.
                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Tue, August 15, 2006 - 11:16 AM
                                              Bush supporters I would agree with you on. It tends to be pride that forces them to hang on to their support for him in the face of his ineptitude.

                                              Although, I must say that Steve (who is over in the middle east) is a Bush supporter. I think that he is an open minded, compassionate man who is just confused by the Bush propaganda machine.
                                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                Tue, August 15, 2006 - 11:19 AM
                                                <<Although, I must say that Steve (who is over in the middle east) is a Bush supporter. I think that he is an open minded, compassionate man who is just confused by the Bush propaganda machine.>>

                                                I think Steve falls back on the selfishness I described through lazy thinking. That's the case for a lot of people.
                                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                  Tue, August 15, 2006 - 12:39 PM
                                                  That may well be the case for a lot of people. but not everyone has the same kind of critical thinking skills either.
                                                  • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                    Tue, August 15, 2006 - 12:45 PM
                                                    <<That may well be the case for a lot of people. but not everyone has the same kind of critical thinking skills either.>>

                                                    True. Typically I describe Bush supporters as either being corrupt or ignorant, which seems to capture all of them.
                                                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                      Tue, August 15, 2006 - 1:19 PM
                                                      >> True. Typically I describe Bush supporters as either being corrupt or ignorant, which seems to capture all of them. <<

                                                      labels and generalizations are also indicative of "lazy thinking."
                                                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                        Tue, August 15, 2006 - 1:33 PM
                                                        <<labels and generalizations are also indicative of "lazy thinking.">>

                                                        It's only a generalization if it fails to describe a significant number of people. I don't see mine as a generalization.
                                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                          Tue, August 15, 2006 - 1:43 PM
                                                          >> I don't see mine as a generalization. <<

                                                          of course, you don't. opinions are like children, so our assessment is inherently biased.

                                                          >> It's only a generalization if it fails to describe a significant number of people. <<

                                                          it is important to assess the sensitivity as well as the specificity of your analyitical method. a couple good questions to ask:

                                                          1) what is 'significant'?
                                                          2) how do you treat outliers?
                                                          3) do you accept that your judgment WILL be wrong at least part of the time?
                                                          4) if yes to 3, how does that affect your opinion?
                                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                            Tue, August 15, 2006 - 1:52 PM
                                                            <<of course, you don't. opinions are like children, so our assessment is inherently biased>>

                                                            Yes, but you can work to eliminate your bias by testing your hypothesis repeatedly, as I have.

                                                            <<1) what is 'significant'?>>

                                                            Considering my sample size is, oh, maybe around 100, I would consider 1 single outlier to be significant.

                                                            <<2) how do you treat outliers?>>

                                                            I'll tell you when I meet one.

                                                            <<3) do you accept that your judgment WILL be wrong at least part of the time?>>

                                                            Not yet. My experience so far is that the judgement has proven correct 100% of the time. I'm tentatively concluding that a combination of ignorance and personal corruption are essential elements to support for Bush. Just as a disability is an essential element to get into the Special Olympics.

                                                            Arthur, this hypothesis is incredibly easy to prove. The next time it gets proven, I'll point you to the page.
                                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                              Tue, August 15, 2006 - 2:09 PM
                                                              >> Not yet. My experience so far is that the judgement has proven correct 100% of the time. <<

                                                              100%??? I suggest reassessing your method of measurement.
                                                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                Tue, August 15, 2006 - 2:13 PM
                                                                <<100%??? I suggest reassessing your method of measurement.>>

                                                                I invite you to assess it yourself. Next time I'm in the midst of such a discussion on Tribe, I'll let you know.
                                                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                      Tue, August 15, 2006 - 4:07 PM
                                                      You have forgotten stubborness and pride. Prideful people have a hard time changing there stance once so vehemently espousing a candidate like Bush.
                                                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                        Tue, August 15, 2006 - 4:16 PM
                                                        <<You have forgotten stubborness and pride.>>

                                                        I put all these under a large heading of personal corruption. Basically, this mix of ignorance and corruption can be expressed this way:

                                                        IGNORANCE: "I support Bush because he's making Americans safer."

                                                        CORRUPTION: "Bush may be a terrible president, but I'm not about to admit that the likes of Howard Dean and Michael Moore were right about something."

                                                        Of course, few if any people actually fall neatly under one category or the other, but usually tend to mix their ignorance with a bit of corruption or vice versa. Salil is probably 99% corruption, and 1% ignorance. (His ignorance is of a spiritual nature, not understanding one person's connection with one's surroundings and with others.) On the other hand, Steve is closer to 10% corruption and 90% ignorance.
                                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                          Tue, August 15, 2006 - 5:37 PM
                                                          Michael Moore is probably close to 90% corrruption considering the fact that he is willing to exagerate and mislead to prove a point.
                                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                            Tue, August 15, 2006 - 5:42 PM
                                                            <<Michael Moore is probably close to 90% corrruption considering the fact that he is willing to exagerate and mislead to prove a point>>

                                                            He did use one misleading item in F9/11 that I am aware of, which was his implication that the bin Laden family was put on a plane home before the air travel restrictions were lifted for everyone else.

                                                            However, I wouldn't put him at 90% for that. End of the day, he's fighting the much greater corruption of BushCo, which is a noble pursuit that should lower his own corruption rating a bit.
                                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                              Tue, August 15, 2006 - 5:44 PM
                                                              >> However, I wouldn't put him at 90% for that. End of the day, he's fighting the much greater corruption of BushCo, which is a noble pursuit that should lower his own corruption rating a bit. <<

                                                              so the ends justify the means as long as you are fighting the right fight.
                                                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                Tue, August 15, 2006 - 6:04 PM
                                                                <<so the ends justify the means as long as you are fighting the right fight>>

                                                                In some ways, and only to a certain extent.

                                                                In the case of Moore's misleading bit about the flight restrictions, I think it did far more damage to his point than if he had not tried to make that point. In other words, a small bit of corruption has a way of corrupting the cause that you're fighting for. Again, in Moore's case this is happening slightly. There are lots of other examples we can point to that have been far more grevous.
                                                            • .
                                                              .
                                                              offline 39

                                                              Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                              Tue, August 15, 2006 - 7:55 PM
                                                              <He did use one misleading item in F9/11 that I am aware of>

                                                              Are you KIDDING?

                                                              what about Sergeant Peter Damon who is suing Moore for misrepresenting him in the film, by painting him as anti-war?
                                                        • .
                                                          .
                                                          offline 39

                                                          Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                          Tue, August 15, 2006 - 7:56 PM
                                                          Paul, you've seriously got issues. Just stop talking about me personally, ok? I don't EVER discuss you and your psyche, so cut it out - its not pertinent to ANY argument.
                                                          • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                            Wed, August 16, 2006 - 10:47 AM
                                                            <<I don't EVER discuss you and your psyche>>

                                                            That's because you lack the empathy or insight to make such remarks. If you could do so to understand these topics at a deeper level, no doubt you would.

                                                            <<its not pertinent to ANY argument.>>

                                                            Understanding the personal motivations and biases of people engaging in a discussion is often essential to understanding the true dialogue. Your utterly consistent bias in favor of dropping bombs and in opposition to diplomacy and peace begs for some understanding. Sorry if you find this understanding a bit invasive, but shooting the messenger is not a productive approach.
                                                            • .
                                                              .
                                                              offline 39

                                                              Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                              Thu, August 17, 2006 - 4:02 AM
                                                              <That's because you lack the empathy or insight to make such remarks>

                                                              No Paul, its because I understand that ad hominems are FALLACIES, and I don't make idiotic assertions about people.

                                                              I have degree in Psychology, Paul, what do you have?

                                                              You regularly claim I say things I don't say, you intentionally *lie* about what I have said in the past, and you're unapologetic about it. The simple fact of the matter is your favored course of debate is fallacious, which leads one to the obvious conclusion that you simply are incapable of addressing issues.
                                                              • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                Thu, August 17, 2006 - 10:23 AM
                                                                <<I have degree in Psychology, Paul, what do you have?>>

                                                                Strong empathetic abilities, which I use every day in my career. I have some classroom-taught models, but really those don't provide the empathy necessary to interpret those models, as you demonstrate. Your assumption that a degree is necessary to properly understand a topic, as you've stated so many times, completely undermines your credibility regarding certain subjects, particularly the more nebulous topics of psychology or spirituality.

                                                                <<You regularly claim I say things I don't say, you intentionally *lie* about what I have said in the past, and you're unapologetic about it.>>

                                                                That's a truly ironic statement, considering that one of your claimed "lies" of mine turns out to be...woops, a lie of yours! See here:
                                                                tinyurl.com/m3ccz
                                                                • .
                                                                  .
                                                                  offline 39

                                                                  Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                  Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:09 PM
                                                                  <Strong empathetic abilities>

                                                                  Oh, did you get a certificate at the Berkley School of Empathy, Paul?

                                                                  Oh, no, its just your own bullshit assessment and self aggrandizement

                                                                  And that link of yours in no way supports your assertion. You're inventing statements and then pointing to OTHER things I said pretending that they mean what you claim them to mean.

                                                                  there's NO WAY anyone who has studied argument construction would engage in such elementary architecture.
                                                                  • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                    Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:32 PM
                                                                    <<Oh, did you get a certificate at the Berkley School of Empathy, Paul?>>

                                                                    Salil, your insistance than any sort of knowledge must be accompanied by some kind of certificate from some accredited school really makes you look foolish.

                                                                    <<Oh, no, its just your own bullshit assessment and self aggrandizement>>

                                                                    Like I said, it's an ability I've probably always have had, and I have based my career on this. So while my assessment may be bullshit, people are willing to pay $150/hour for such bullshit.

                                                                    Similarily, people may look at the conclusions of quantum mechanics and decide that those conclusions are too unbelievable to be true. But in the meantime, their car and their computer is based on those conclusions.
                                                                    • .
                                                                      .
                                                                      offline 39

                                                                      Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                      Mon, August 21, 2006 - 2:50 PM
                                                                      No paul, your business is Marketing, thats a learned skill, its not based on your ability to make psychological diagnoses of people
                                                                      • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                        Mon, August 21, 2006 - 3:06 PM
                                                                        <<your business is Marketing, thats a learned skill>>

                                                                        Bzzzt!! Wrong!

                                                                        Thanks for trying, you can pick up your parting gift over there.

                                                                        The correct answer was "design and web development." That's right, design and web development. Those of you who said "marketing" didn't understand the distinction between the two. Whereas "marketing" is the overarching discpline that sees a product from manufacture through to end use, "design" is used to describe that touchy-feely art form where the message of an organization or portrayed in a way that will most appeal to its target audiences.

                                                                        I don't use my marketing degree. At all.
                                                                        • .
                                                                          .
                                                                          offline 39

                                                                          Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                          Mon, August 21, 2006 - 6:04 PM
                                                                          Oh, I am SO sorry paul, you went to school for marketing, but now you work in a specific aspect of marketing.

                                                                          Like I said, I dont know shit about it, so I won't argue with you.

                                                                          yet you'll try and ignore these sorts of important distinctions in fields I know something about, like politics, or military intelligence
                                                  • .
                                                    .
                                                    offline 39

                                                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                    Wed, August 16, 2006 - 11:08 PM
                                                    Hahahahaha

                                                    you guys are UNBELIEVABLE

                                                    you are now calling 52% of americans 'corrupt or ignorant'

                                                    but Steve, steve who runs his OWN BUSINESS, makes 6 figures a year, is BLACK, AND A SOLDIER, he, he simply doesnt have the critical thinking skills to understand why Bush is so horrible.

                                                    wow.

                                                    un fucking believable.

                                                    And I'm just a corrupt sociopath - my academic study of history, the middle east, and political science COULDNT POSSIBLY have led me to believe in anything Bush does.

                                                    Yeah, that guy Wilson didnt have a clue either.
                                                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                      Thu, August 17, 2006 - 10:19 AM
                                                      <<you are now calling 52% of americans 'corrupt or ignorant'>>

                                                      That is correct.

                                                      <<but Steve, steve who runs his OWN BUSINESS, makes 6 figures a year, is BLACK, AND A SOLDIER, he, he simply doesnt have the critical thinking skills to understand why Bush is so horrible.>>

                                                      As Steve has demonstrated repeatedly, he does indeed lack these critical thinking skills. He's a nice guy, but certain arguments will go straight over his head, and it appears he understands that.

                                                      <<And I'm just a corrupt sociopath - my academic study of history, the middle east, and political science COULDNT POSSIBLY have led me to believe in anything Bush does.>>

                                                      Your studies didn't lead you to believe that violence is glorious. That is something you were born with or were taught in a non-classroom setting. You have then used your education to bolster this belief.
                                                      • .
                                                        .
                                                        offline 39

                                                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                        Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:05 PM
                                                        <he does indeed lack these critical thinking skills.>

                                                        I assume you've given Steve a psychological battery to ascertain his ability to think critically?

                                                        I guess one doesnt need critical thinking skills to become an NCO, or to own a successful small business.

                                                        That stuff just gets thrown in one's lap.

                                                        <Your studies didn't lead you to believe that violence is glorious>

                                                        violence is *necessary* - glorious is a subjective term - most cultures glorify violence.
                                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                          Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:37 PM
                                                          <<I assume you've given Steve a psychological battery to ascertain his ability to think critically?>>

                                                          Not necessary. Steve has proven his mental abilities to everyone on these tribes.

                                                          What is especially funny is, I run my own successful business and make 6 figures a year, but something tells me you'll never be holding me up as a great critical thinker the way you did Steve. Isn't that curious?

                                                          <<violence is *necessary* - glorious is a subjective term - most cultures glorify violence>>

                                                          The jury is out on whether violence is in fact necessary. The alternative has rarely been tried. As far as the glorification of violence, is your "most cultures" comment an appeal to authority? Just take ownership of your own feelings: you glorify violence. Don't attempt to justify it by artificial means.
                                                          • .
                                                            .
                                                            offline 39

                                                            Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                            Mon, August 21, 2006 - 1:43 PM
                                                            Paul, I never made any claims about the greatness of Steve's critical thinking abilities - I havent seen the results of a critical thinking eval so i wouldnt deem myself capable of ranking them.

                                                            But if someone said that you couldnt think critically I would most certainly assert that that was bullshit.

                                                            <The jury is out on whether violence is in fact necessary>

                                                            We are animals, Paul, we hunt, we kill, that's part of nature.

                                                            <Just take ownership of your own feelings: you glorify violence. Don't attempt to justify it by artificial means. >

                                                            Don't tell me what I'm doing, when you cant see into my head. I do own my feelings, and I don't glorify violence, I accept it as part and parcel of our world. Thats it, no more, no less.

                                                            <As far as the glorification of violence, is your "most cultures" comment an appeal to authority>

                                                            no, its a statement of fact, not the defense of an assertion like 'violence is glorious'

                                                            you seriously need to re-take that arguments class.
                                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                              Mon, August 21, 2006 - 2:20 PM
                                                              <<But if someone said that you couldnt think critically I would most certainly assert that that was bullshit.>>

                                                              Anyone who was paying attention would find your statement interesting indeed, since you typically associate me with great brain deficiency or poor education, take your pick. In fact, I think the statement above is a lie. Too bad we can never really prove it.

                                                              <<We are animals, Paul, we hunt, we kill, that's part of nature>>

                                                              Ah. Well, if you want to include the violence we undertake to secure proper nutrition for our bodies, I would say that is "necessary violence" in that it is an essential condition of our existence on this planet. However, I would not include homocide in that group, such as what occurs during war, since that is rarely necessary to ensure survival.

                                                              <<I don't glorify violence, I accept it as part and parcel of our world. Thats it, no more, no less.>>

                                                              You embrace the part of violence that is unnecessary, even gratuitous. The part that only represents a net loss for humanity. This is the violence towards which I am opposed and you are in favor. This is our basic difference.
                                                              • .
                                                                .
                                                                offline 39

                                                                Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                Mon, August 21, 2006 - 3:03 PM
                                                                Paul, your education in the issues we discuss here is lacking. That has nothing to do with you being dumb, or lacking critical thinking skills. When I derogate your ability to construct an argument, and point out all the fallacies you're making, that doesnt mean I dont recognize that in fact you are a bright person - it simply means that you don't have the comprehension of argument construction I have - most people dont.

                                                                I wouldnt ever argue with you about Marketing, that's your thing.


                                                                <You embrace the part of violence that is unnecessary, even gratuitous>

                                                                you still don't get it. probably because you can't divorce yourself from your innate need to 'embrace' things.

                                                                I don't 'embrace' violence, I don't 'embrace' peace, I don't 'embrace' anything - emotional involvement has nothing to do with my belief system.
                                                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                  Mon, August 21, 2006 - 3:13 PM
                                                                  <<I wouldnt ever argue with you about Marketing, that's your thing>>

                                                                  No, it's not "my thing." What your tender young years haven't taught you yet, Salil, is that for most people, what they learn in college is not knowledge that they directly (or even indirectly) apply in their careers. Personally, in college I learned how to absorb and then regurgitate a subject. That was the main skill I gathered. Of course, given the age I was, I also absorbed a lot of other wisdom, which this skill helped me aborb. Then when I got out of school, I kissed marketing goodbye and set off traveling for years. That was the biggest education. Ages later, I applied a bit of rudimentary marketing in setting up my business.

                                                                  The reason why I explain that is because I know you want to say "marketing is my thing," so I'll say "pretending to be an international man of mystery is your thing." Your idea is that what you learn in school makes up what you are and what you know. You say this because it's clearly true of you. You are the sum total of your classes: no more, no less. However, for other people, accumulated experience builds into something called "wisdom" which can then be applied to many different scenarios.

                                                                  <<I don't 'embrace' violence, I don't 'embrace' peace>>

                                                                  I see. Moral equivalency. Violence and peace have the same value. Gotcha.

                                                                  <<I don't 'embrace' anything - emotional involvement has nothing to do with my belief system>>

                                                                  Exactly! I couldn't have paraphrased that any more clearly. This is why you were able to make any sort of comparison between a mole on an old man's neck, and tens of thousands of dead. The fact that people are living, or that a mole is just a lump of skin, has absolutely no value to you. This is what I've been telling you all along. I'm glad you're finally opening up about this.
                                                                  • .
                                                                    .
                                                                    offline 39

                                                                    Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                    Mon, August 21, 2006 - 6:13 PM
                                                                    Ah yes paul, I'm a mere babe, no experience in the real world, never travelled, oh impart to me your age old wisdom of 11 years.


                                                                    I thought you were in marketing - whatever it is that you do, web design, whatever, its your thing, and I dont know shit about it.

                                                                    <You are the sum total of your classes: no more, no less>

                                                                    Oh what bullshit dude. Again paul, you don't know fuck all about me, as I've proven time and time again.

                                                                    Living abroad, the military, jobs from construction to sales engineering to bouncing in a bar, martial arts, studying the philosophy of the classics at a young age, watching friends die, saving others, living in 3rd world countries - none of these things made me who I am, none of them. Right?

                                                                    Whatever Paul, you've illustrated your clulelessness again.

                                                                    <This is what I've been telling you all along. I'm glad you're finally opening up about this. >

                                                                    Uh, Paul, you're full of shit, again. I have never denied this, and you certainly havent been telling me anything but a whole bunch of fallacies, like, again:

                                                                    <This is why you were able to make any sort of comparison between a mole on an old man's neck, and tens of thousands of dead>

                                                                    when I DIDN'T.

                                                                    Seriously, are you stupid? Maybe I'm wrong about you, maybe you really are incapable of understanding that I DIDNT FUCKING COMPARE THE TWO YOU MORON.
                                                                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                                      Mon, August 21, 2006 - 6:24 PM
                                                                      <<Living abroad, the military, jobs from construction to sales engineering to bouncing in a bar, martial arts, studying the philosophy of the classics at a young age, watching friends die, saving others, living in 3rd world countries - none of these things made me who I am, none of them. Right?>>

                                                                      Well, good for you. I assume this means you place some sort of value in wisdom gathered outside a classroom. But then why do you contstantly ask what a person's degree is in order to qualify him/her to discuss any subject? Why do you constantly wave around your own classroom experience if you believed there was more to education? Hell, I was supposed to have a Ph.D. to discuss Buddhism!!

                                                                      <<Seriously, are you stupid? Maybe I'm wrong about you, maybe you really are incapable of understanding that I DIDNT FUCKING COMPARE THE TWO YOU MORON.>>

                                                                      Look, don't get upset at me just because you let out a bit more information than you should have, seeing as you wanted to go on pretending that you are a well-adjusted human being. So you're completely without human compassion and aren't able to deal with your emotions. That's hardly my fault.

                                                                      The question is, is your lack of healthy human qualities relevant to these discussions, wherein you consistently play the Bush apologist as he dismantles constitutional safeguards, destabilizes world politics, and unites much of the world against us? You bet it is!! Because, end of the day, you are championing policies that will directly and negatively affect your lifestyle and chances of survival in the future. Without discovering the details of your sickness, your support for this kind of stuff is totally enigmatic.
                                                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                      Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:15 PM
                                                      <<you guys are UNBELIEVABLE

                                                      Us GUYS? Where did I say any such thing? Here you go again.....broad brush Salil...

                                                      <<but Steve, steve who runs his OWN BUSINESS, makes 6 figures a year, is BLACK, AND A SOLDIER, he, he simply doesnt have the critical thinking skills to understand why Bush is so horrible.

                                                      Who said Steve did not have critical thinking skills? I said SOME PEOPLE in reference to SOME PEOPLE, not Steve. We were not just talking about Steve, we were talking about conservatives in general that we know. Some of my Hill Billy relatives for instance. AND I think it is pretty DISGUSTING that you have to bring Steve's RACE in to the issue. You fucking sicken me, you will use ANYTHING to slime those you are having a discussion with.
                                                      • .
                                                        .
                                                        offline 39

                                                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                        Mon, August 21, 2006 - 1:30 PM
                                                        Uh, Jeff, FUCKING PAY ATTENTION


                                                        Paul: "he does indeed lack these critical thinking skills"

                                                        Steve: "Who said Steve did not have critical thinking skills?"

                                                        <AND I think it is pretty DISGUSTING that you have to bring Steve's RACE in to the issue.>

                                                        Steve is black - why does that bother you?
                                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                          Tue, August 22, 2006 - 12:02 PM
                                                          <<Steve is black - why does that bother you?

                                                          Thanks for proving my point. You have ONCE AGAIN disgustingly used Steve's race as a way to slime me. Tsk Tsk...
                                          • .
                                            .
                                            offline 39

                                            Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Tue, August 15, 2006 - 7:47 PM
                                            <In reality, Paul is speaking in gereralities based on the examples of a whole group of people that are highly influential and at the core of the Conservative Movement, not just one or two Joe-Blows putting in their two cents worth. But I don't think you can paint the whole of the conservatives with that brush. >

                                            jeff, face it - you don't EVER jump on your teamates for not pointing out the flaws of the left.

                                            We werent talking about the INTOLERANCE of the religious right, we were talking about people that believe in creationism, which includes people from across the spectrum - you were just looking for some excuse to jump my case.
                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Wed, August 16, 2006 - 9:09 PM
                                              Where was there a subject where I was speaking about the flaws of the right? I primarily speak about the issues that I disagree with on the right.

                                              Your the one that brought up intolerance, not me. I mean come on, how can you defend this "the intolerance of the left strikes again"?
                                              • .
                                                .
                                                offline 39

                                                Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                Wed, August 16, 2006 - 10:39 PM
                                                Jeff, put on your thinking cap here:

                                                Paynie calls americans dumb because many of them believe in Creationism. he then goes on to call people dumb for other things, like not travelling outside the US.

                                                Paynie is left.

                                                He is espousing intolerant views.

                                                No one mentioned a single thing about the intolerance of the right, therefore I didn't address it. When you brought it up, I agreed that there was intolerance on the right as well.

                                                And I can defend my statement very well - it was completely accurate
                                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                  Wed, August 16, 2006 - 11:04 PM
                                                  Salil. Calling someone "dumb" is opinionated, not intolerant. I stand by my words. I also think they don't drive too well. I "tolerate" them anyway.
                                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                  Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:17 PM
                                                  <<And I can defend my statement very well - it was completely accurate

                                                  It was definately NOT accurate. THE left is not intolerant. End of story. Look at the wikepedia definition of liberalism HOT SHOT!
                                    • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                      Tue, August 15, 2006 - 9:45 AM
                                      You just demonstrated your Fox News tactics once again for me Salil, thanks for helping to demonstrate my point. Regardless of Paynie being intolerant or not, the simple fact is you attributed his so-called intolerance to THE LEFT. Let me give you an example of how rediculous this is. If a right wing Klu Klux Klan member were to post racial slurs on this site, would it be fair for me to say "The Racism of the Right Strikes again"? The answer is no.

                                      <<The left always tries to portray itself as the tolerant group, but as we have seen here today, that portrayal is simply fiction.

                                      That is the dumbest thing you have ever said. One person and their so-called intolerance demonstrates that trait for a whole group? HAHA!!

                                      As I already stated, by definition liberals are more tolerant than Conservatives.
                                      • .
                                        .
                                        offline 39

                                        Re: Americans are dumb.

                                        Tue, August 15, 2006 - 7:52 PM
                                        Jeff, you're so hypocritical it astounds me.

                                        How many times do you guys say crap like 'The Corruption of the Right', etc?

                                        My statement 'The intolerance of the left' does NOT imply that EVERYONE on the left is intolerant at all - that would be a completely illogical conclusion.

                                        If 5 members of the yankees strike out every time they are at bat, and I say 'the Strike outs of the yankees strike again' it wouldnt imply that every member of the team strikes out.

                                        <As I already stated, by definition liberals are more tolerant than Conservatives>

                                        As you have stated? hahahahahah, sorry Jeff, you're not qualified to make such assertions.

                                        <One person and their so-called intolerance demonstrates that trait for a whole group? HAHA!! >

                                        Its not one person, and I DIDNT SAY THAT THE TRAIT DESCRIBES THE WHOLE GROUP

                                        good lord you love straw men
                                        • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                          Wed, August 16, 2006 - 9:14 PM
                                          <<How many times do you guys say crap like 'The Corruption of the Right', etc?

                                          How can I be hypocritical if I have never said it?

                                          <<My statement 'The intolerance of the left' does NOT imply that EVERYONE on the left is intolerant at all

                                          But it is a statement about the group in general. Your baseball analogy is piss poor.

                                          <<As you have stated? hahahahahah, sorry Jeff, you're not qualified to make such assertions.

                                          And who gives out these sort of qualifications Salil? Look up the definition of Liberal and Conservative and you will find that BY DEFINITION liberals are more open to change and new ideas. Conservatives are resistant to change are less open minded to things like homosexuality.

                                          <<I DIDNT SAY THAT THE TRAIT DESCRIBES THE WHOLE GROUP

                                          They why did you say THE Left rather than some of you on the left? THE left indicates the group.
                                          • .
                                            .
                                            offline 39

                                            Re: Americans are dumb.

                                            Wed, August 16, 2006 - 10:47 PM
                                            My baseball analogy is perfectly appropriate.

                                            Let me give you another:

                                            'Oh look, the LAPD beat up another suspect'

                                            'ah well, the violence of the LAPD strikes again'

                                            And Jeff, are you saying that I can't go through and find instances of you claiming that the Neo Cons are <fill in the disparagement> ?

                                            And no, BY definition Liberals are not more 'tolerant' - open to 'change' and 'new ideas', etc. Examine the Left wing in South American, the Soviet Bloc, etc. BY DEFINITION, "Liberals" can be VERY intolerant.

                                            LIBERALISM is tolerant - and Conservatives are the bastions of classic liberalism.


                                            • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                              Thu, August 17, 2006 - 1:28 PM
                                              Neoconservatives only make up a portion of the conservative movement. That means I am being more accurate and pin point in my disagreements with THAT portion of the conservative movement only. That is painting with a thin brush salil, not a broad brush.

                                              In addition, we are talking about Liberalism in the UNITED STATES Tex. We are not talking about Communism and their socialist dictatorial ideas. American liberal beliefs are the opposite of dictatorships. What a piss poor try.

                                              Lets look once again at the definition for Liberal and the definition for conservative.

                                              Liberal:
                                              www.google.com/search

                                              Conservative:
                                              www.google.com/search

                                              Lets also look at Wikipedia version of Liberalism.

                                              Liberalism:
                                              en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
                                              • .
                                                .
                                                offline 39

                                                Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                Thu, August 17, 2006 - 2:14 PM
                                                Jeff, LIBERALISM is NOT synonymous with the LIBERAL party

                                                stop pretending it is
                                                • Re: Americans are dumb.

                                                  Fri, August 18, 2006 - 10:56 AM
                                                  Hey Hot shot, who the hell is pretending any such thing? Among the information on Liberals and Liberalism, they included an explanation about the Liberal party! This does not invalidate other information or definitions provided.

                                                  Yet ANOTHER piss poor try.