4,000 ..... and counting.

topic posted Tue, March 25, 2008 - 1:55 PM by 

Will you want to call it off at 8,000 ..... 16,000 ..... 32,000 .....

Pick a number.


.
posted by:
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

    Tue, March 25, 2008 - 2:19 PM
    What a stupid question.

    At what number of American dead would you have asked FDR to bring our troops home during WWII?

    Oh, but that's different, that was a just war, you might say.

    And there is the real issue. The issue is not whether we have reached some arbitrary body count, but whether the war makes sense. If the war makes no sense, then the number I would pick is ... one. If the war makes sense, then the number is ... until we run out of soldiers or win, whichever comes first.

    Now, if you want to tell us this war is fucked, I won't argue with you.
    • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

      Tue, March 25, 2008 - 3:31 PM
      Now look up the word "rhetorical".
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

        Tue, March 25, 2008 - 3:58 PM
        You could look up "sophistry" instead.

        You use words in one context, to advance your views, and as soon as anyone challenges your words, instead of having the courage to back up your taunts, baiting and trolling, you try to suggest the words had a different, innocent, benign meanings or contexts, and you imply that the reader was just overreacting. I don't buy it.

        You, and the media, have picked 4,000 dead as some magic benchmark that the administration must now justify. Your question was not merely a rhetorical question. In fact, you listed a bunch of other numbers or bench marks that you demand we justify, as if there were some calculus of human body count that the policy makers can apply. Didn't we learn in Vietnam that body counts don't work?

        In the alternative, if that is your idea of rhetoric, it is stupid. Do you really expect an answer, that someone will say "4,000 is okay, but I draw the line at 8,433."

        If not, what is the point of your question, even as rhetoric?

        Answer my rhetorical question, then. How many dead in WWII before you would have demanded that FDR bring home the troops? You can't answer that, because demanding to know body limits on a war is stupid.

        A war is not justified or unjustified simply on the basis of a specific body count. 4,000 dead has symbolic meaning only because we think in terms of a base ten numbering system. Otherwise, the benchmark doesn't have real meaning.

        Even one life lost, in a stupid cause, is too much.

        This is a stupid war. How McCain is going to turn it around and squeeze some kind of victory out of it, remains to be seen. As for the dems, if they win the election, I don't know what the hell they think they are going to do or what the body count will be in the Iraqi civil war after we leave.

        • s
          s
          offline 11

          Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

          Tue, March 25, 2008 - 4:36 PM
          you think 4000 is a lot of deaths when it comes to war?

          the most Americans killed in a single battle, is 26,277 killed in the Battle of Meuse-Argonne. But the "bloodiest battle in US history" could also mean the most people of all nationalities killed in a battle involving a major commitment of American troops, which would be the 150,000 Americans and Japanese killed at Okinawa.

          Gettysburg, the bloodiest battle of the Civil War, is usually claimed to have killed 3,155 Union and 3,903 Confederate troops, for a total of 7,058 -- in one day!


          • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

            Tue, March 25, 2008 - 5:04 PM
            It wasn't a question. It was a statement.

            Here's a cute little TV show about your beloved leaders.
            www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/f...ine/bushswar/

            I doubt whether many of you will watch it.
            You don't have the balls.

            And don't give me any crap about how the program is biased.
            Show me one second that isn't true.

            Okinawa was a slaughter. Bad management.

            Do you care about the 120,000 Iraqi's dead?

            • Unsu...
               

              Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

              Tue, March 25, 2008 - 7:32 PM
              You're still asking me questions, Paynie? But you haven't answered mine.

              What is your litmus test, your benchmark, your cut off, for the number of acceptable losses of troops in a just war?

              If you can't answer that, then what is the point of your "rhetorical" question, other than to troll? (Can we get a liberal in here who can argue, and not just troll? This is getting boring.)

              Yes, we know you think the war is unjust. And I don't necessarily disagree with you on that point.

              And if that is the case, then even one loss is too much, I am sure you agree/

              But, for argument sake, if a person thinks the war is just or necessary, then 4,000 is just a sad milestone, but does not change the necessity to continue on, does it?

              So, repeating the day's news, that 4,000 are dead, isn't really very persuasive or convincing of anything, is it?
              • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                Tue, March 25, 2008 - 7:46 PM
                No. It's not. It's just another sad milestone.
                And lets not forget the 40,000 seriously disabled as well.

                And you are also right. Pulling all the soldiers out tomorrow (hypothetically) would be a disaster.

                The trouble is, America pissed off the UN by going in alone, so the UN aren't going to take over. It really is a mess. There's been a bit of a ceasefire the past few weeks, but that's about to end. It's going to get worse before it gets better.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                  Tue, March 25, 2008 - 8:35 PM
                  We agree it is a total mess, and I will agree with you that Bush gets the blame. He ought to be hung, if not for treason, then for gross negligence. Gross negligence of command ought to constitute treason.

                  But hanging that son of a bitch won't fix anything.

                  Either Obama or McCain will have to fix it. Regardless of which one is our next president, they face the same problem.

                  What should they do?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                    Wed, March 26, 2008 - 12:30 AM
                    Both of them would have a real problem.
                    I think they'd rather deal with Obama, but McCain might do some good as well.
                    Cheney and Rumsfeld should hang.
                    Bush is just an idiot.

                    www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/f...ine/bushswar/

                    Sad.
                    • s
                      s
                      offline 11

                      Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                      Wed, March 26, 2008 - 9:30 AM
                      <Bush is just an idiot. >

                      when all is said and done, this is all the left "has" on bush-- 'he dosn't speak well'. thus, they're trying to nominate the silver-tongued obama. they cannot name a single accomplishment of either obama or clinton but obama "speaks" well. this is state of the pathetic, truly pathetic, liberals, it's ALWAYS, ALWAYS, style over substance.

                      i care about how consistent bush has been with his policies, NOT how he delivers them.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    s
                    s
                    offline 11

                    Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                    Wed, March 26, 2008 - 9:24 AM
                    <We agree it is a total mess, and I will agree with you that Bush gets the blame. He ought to be hung, if not for treason, then for gross negligence. Gross negligence of command ought to constitute treason>

                    let's take this silly sentence and plug in some names:

                    It's the summer of 1864 and the North is losing and morale is at its lowest ebb after 3 1/2 of war and close to 600,000 american deaths:

                    "We agree it is a total mess, and I will agree with you that Lincoln gets the blame. He ought to be hung, if not for treason, then for gross negligence. Gross negligence of command ought to constitute treason."

                    It's 1943 and many americans think we should be out of europe:

                    "We agree it is a total mess, and I will agree with you that Roosevelt gets the blame. He ought to be hung, if not for treason, then for gross negligence. Gross negligence of command ought to constitute treason.

                    'nuff said.
                • s
                  s
                  offline 11

                  Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                  Wed, March 26, 2008 - 9:21 AM
                  <No. It's not. It's just another sad milestone.>

                  to the left, no war is justified -- so go on with all your 'sad milestones'. our soldiers fight for your right to denigrate the mission. the highly justified mission.
  • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

    Wed, March 26, 2008 - 6:12 AM
    Pick a number~?

    How About I pick a number that isn't tied to any positive results - a number that is purely waste producing absolutely nothing. How about that~?


    Forty-Six Thousand. Ya know what that is~? It's the number of people who die each year in traffic on the way to work every morning.


    Or how about we put a value to that 4000 number~? There has been not one terrorist attack on the US since GW initiated his over seas campaign against Alqaida.
    Yah Yah sure sure There was no Al Qaida in Iraq (that any one knows about ) before we went there. So fucking what?
    There are now. And we are grinding them into fly shit just exactly their mothers should have.

    Even OBL thinks it's a good idea to face off with the USA in Iraq. That's a mistake in steroids that GW baited him into and it's going to destroy Al Qaida.

    Meanwhile GW has cut off their funding world wide forcing them to transact in heavy clumsy things like hand carried gold and gems and hand carried currency.

    The police and military around the world are closing in on them every where shutting their cells down and making it impossible for them to operate.

    The international measures to look at internet and cellular communications has made it impossible for them to talk to each other forcing them to speak in badly understood code speak hoping that the people ion the receiving end manage to suss out the hidden messages in shabbily made, humiliating, poorly, recorded videos. They have to hand carry messages using old medieval style couriers.

    the fact is that under GW the single greatest threat to civilization (which flourished under Clinton growing to the world wide threat it was) has been beaten back into caves and silence. Their operatives have been killed and captured. Their leaders have to suck goat dicks for food and they are slowly dying a slow miserable death of growing world wide unpopularity and isolation and old age.

    Meanwhile the idiot left wants to do the same stupid arrogant ignorant thing they did in Vietnam. They want to cut and run abandoning allies and obligations creating a power imbalance and setting the stage for the very thing that always happens (every time in all history) when one of two combating sides suddenly experiences ad dramatic and substantial increase in relative power.

    They slaughter their opponents mercilessly.


    • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

      Wed, March 26, 2008 - 6:32 AM
      Okay - no attacks on US soil since 2001. Unless you consider our embassys and bases our soil.


      OBL has plainly stated that he wants to isolate the US, and turn our friends against us. And every major member of the mighy "Collation of the Willing" HAS been attacked for their support of our War on Terror.


      As a result, our international support has deteriorated, and our dollar is at an all time low. OBL knows that he's not going to defeat our military. He's never said he would do so - but he'll defeat us politically and economically. Or rather, he knows how we'll defeat ourselves.

      • s
        s
        offline 11

        Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

        Wed, March 26, 2008 - 9:25 AM
        <As a result, our international support has deteriorated, and our dollar is at an all time low....>


        .and.....and....and....

        chicken little, the sky is falling....the liberal mantra....
      • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

        Wed, March 26, 2008 - 1:21 PM
        ******************OBL has plainly stated that he wants to isolate the US, and turn our friends against us.*************

        Yah Yah Yah Madrid the tube etc. He's failing.

        *********** And every major member of the mighy "Collation of the Willing" HAS been attacked for their support of our War on Terror.***********

        Spain went the chicken shit path but they haven't turned on the US. So OBL is still failing.


        ************As a result, our international support has deteriorated, and our dollar is at an all time low. **********

        How pray tell - by what magic of economic nonsense have you connected OBL and the dollar?
        Did somebody say this or did you read it somewhere and you took it at face value - - without question?
        This was one of those moments when the little siren in the back of your head should have been screaming.
        HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

        At any rate international support if a fleeting, fickle, and fey thing. It comes it goes but, the likes of you aren't equipped to gauge it. You get the noise from the far left that only serves itself. Better to ask who is buying into US securities ad shareholders in US corporations and land. Ask that question and you see an enormous amount of solidarity with the USA from all over the world.

        Follow the money. Forget the leftist ignoramuses, follow the money.

        **********OBL knows that he's not going to defeat our military. He's never said he would do so - but he'll defeat us politically and economically. Or rather, he knows how we'll defeat ourselves.***************

        There you are back to thinking that OBL is an economic force. You are either going to abandon this nonsense or you are going to under pin it with something more than pixi dust and wishful (US hating ) thinking.

        Politically OBL is as nothing. He's sucking goat dicks for nourishment. He is cut off bereft making an occasional humiliating video from some god forsaken shit hole in the wilderness. The US is slaughtering all his people. The US has seized his funds.
        You don't read do you?
        • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

          Wed, March 26, 2008 - 11:04 PM
          >Yah Yah Yah Madrid the tube etc. He's failing.

          After the Madrid train bombing, Spain voted the Bush-friendly administration out of office. They have since pulled their support for our war in Iraq. How is that a failure again?


          >Spain went the chicken shit path

          If by chicken shit path, you mean sided with the rest of the western world (sans UK) and chose not to support our invasion, then yes - you're correct. They pulled their support from the war - OBL's objective achieved.


          >How pray tell - by what magic of economic nonsense have you connected OBL and the dollar?

          Don't ask me why I'd choose to find common ground with such a dogmatic partisan as yourself, but I'll try anything once... and note I'll do it without such inflammatory and malicious remarks as you sadly employ. How old are you, by the way?

          You don't think that our national debt has anything to do with our deflated currency? You don't think that our sickly borrowing from other nations to feed our defense contractors hurts the US economically? You don't think OBL knows this? You don't think that every time we set up a new base, or send soldiers into Fallujah to re-take a any city by force that AQ picks up thousands of new recruits?

          Do you accept our invasion of Iraq - a soveriegn nation as legitamate? Can you name the last time a country invaded another country to remove its leader? Do you believe there should be international law?


          >Follow the money. Forget the leftist ignoramuses, follow the money.

          I understand why you'd want to over-simplify this to a matter of right and left.. but right and left really has nothing to do with our discussion. My assertion is that OBL (and really anyone who is moderately informed) knows the grave consequences of the military-industrial complex, and is using it against us. YES - YOU AND I. So.. while you want to cry and point fingers at people who you think are across the aisle from you and hate Democrats more than you hate terrorists... I want to help our country evolve to address the problems that brought this on us in the first place. Sorry if that is too sensible or offensive to you, but the truth sometimes hurts.

          I've been following the money.. from our paychecks, into the pockets of Blackwater, Lockheed, Boeing, Halluburton, Betchel and many others.

          So however impossible it may be - the most fair suggestion how to pay for this mess that Bush got us into is for all Red states in 2000 and 2004 to pay for our occupation of Iraq.

          Those of us who had the sensibility to see Bush for what he was back in 2000 shouldn't have to pay for this bullshit.
          • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

            Thu, March 27, 2008 - 9:15 AM

            ********After the Madrid train bombing, Spain voted the Bush-friendly administration out of office. They have since pulled their support for our war in Iraq. How is that a failure again?**********

            Spain hasn’t turned on the US. They merely ran and hid.



            ********If by chicken shit path, you mean sided with the rest of the western world (sans UK) and chose not to support our invasion, then yes - you're correct. They pulled their support from the war - OBL's objective achieved.*********

            No. The objective – as you stated it – was to turn the world against the USA.

            All he succeeded in accomplishing was to intimidate a pack of pussies. Spain isn’t really a world power. Hasn’t been one for oh god almost a century.




            ******Don't ask me why I'd choose to find common ground with such a dogmatic partisan as yourself,********

            I’d question ever y part of that statement. You aren’t on common ground with me. And I ain’t dogmatic sugar britches.


            ********* but I'll try anything once.*********

            I doubt that.

            ***********.. and note I'll do it without such inflammatory and malicious remarks as you sadly employ.**********

            I fail to see anything inflammatory or malicious in the statement “How pray tell - by what magic of economic nonsense have you connected OBL and the dollar?”

            It’s a fair question and you are not competent to answer it so you resort to distraction and personal attack.


            ********** How old are you, by the way? **********

            Older than you sugar britches.




            **********You don't think that our national debt has anything to do with our deflated currency?**********

            I don’t think it has anything to do with Osama Bin Laden. You made the OBL connection and now you can’t explain it.



            *********** You don't think that our sickly borrowing from other nations to feed our defense contractors hurts the US economically?*********

            It is all a question of degree. The market hiccup wasn’t subsequent to the Bonds that were floated to fund the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts. The market did what it would have done no matter the bonds.

            ******* You don't think OBL knows this?*********

            I don’t think OBL is a world class economist let alone a good student of history.

            ********You don't think that every time we set up a new base, or send soldiers into Fallujah to re-take a any city by force that AQ picks up thousands of new recruits?******

            Nope. I think that’s pure myth and trash talk that the leftists tell each other at stoner parties.

            ********Do you accept our invasion of Iraq - a soveriegn nation as legitamate?******

            I’d spell it differently but, yes. Might makes right. There is no other standard by which you can gauge world events. Anything else if pure pixi dust and wishful thinking.


            ******** Can you name the last time a country invaded another country to remove its leader?********

            Who cares? Seriously who gives a rat’s ass? He needed a good deposing and he got one.

            ********** Do you believe there should be international law?*********

            Absolutely not. The very idea is anathema. The very idea is a hostile thrust in the face of any nation’s sovereignty. And the US Supreme Court agrees with me. tinyurl.com/2ory9w


            >Follow the money. Forget the leftist ignoramuses, follow the money.

            ********I understand why you'd want to over-simplify this to a matter of right and left.. but right and left really has nothing to do with our discussion. My assertion is that OBL (and really anyone who is moderately informed) knows the grave consequences of the military-industrial complex, and is using it against us.********

            You have so many ill informed assumptions in there that it’s pointless trying to tease them out. Suffice it to say that you haven’t a clue but if you read this you might learn something about the industrial military complex: tinyurl.com/yseflg

            OBL is not competent to manipulate global markets. The very idea is a fucking joke. What do you think he is a GOD?



            ********** I want to help our country evolve to address the problems that brought this on us in the first place. Sorry if that is too sensible or offensive to you, but the truth sometimes hurts. **********

            While I am most certain that your intentions are good your understanding and state of misinformation won’t let you accomplish much of anything at all.


            ******I've been following the money.. from our paychecks, into the pockets of Blackwater, Lockheed, Boeing, Halluburton, Betchel and many others.********

            Yah Yah always some one else’s fault isn’t it.


            ***********So however impossible it may be - the most fair suggestion how to pay for this mess that Bush got us into is for all Red states in 2000 and 2004 to pay for our occupation of Iraq.***********

            Tell ya what sugar britches, you put it on the agenda and raise it during your next stoner party.

            *******Those of us who had the sensibility to see Bush for what he was back in 2000 shouldn't have to pay for this bullshit.*********

            Except you don’t even know what it is that you don’t want to pay for.
          • s
            s
            offline 11

            Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

            Thu, March 27, 2008 - 11:57 AM
            <After the Madrid train bombing, Spain voted the Bush-friendly administration out of office. They have since pulled their support for our war in Iraq. How is that a failure again? >

            it's not if you want your country to be a member in good standing in EURABIA --which is what its actions vis a vis the spain train bombings did.

            thus, along with england and italy, spain is caving to muslims who have 6.2 children per as opposed to europe which has 1.2 children --not enough to sustain their individual identites. france, with sarkozy, will try and ward off being part of euarbia. denmark is trying too.

            but AMERICA is having 2.1 children per --enough to sustain our americaness, which we should be doing. see, i like being american, i like america, unlike the left who, in schools across our nation, everyday, replace the american flag with a "peace" flag: a sure sign of surrender. the left is the party of surrender --wutness harry reid's surrender in april, 2007, BEFORE the surge had even started! Pelosi too -Obama too.
            Hillary at least has not rescinded her vote--which was the absolute correct vote. but leftists continue to want to lose because if the bad 'ol USA loses, then other less superior countries to us, are then, "more equal" and that's what the left strives for. if everyone is the same, then there's a less likelihood of war. that is what is directly behind leftist philosophy --it's why the left is INVESTED IN AMERICAN DEFEAT ALWAYS,ALWAYS. and it's one of the reasons that leftists truly sicken me.
            • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

              Thu, March 27, 2008 - 1:11 PM
              So maybe it would have been a little smarter to spend the $4,000,000,000,000 actually IN america, rather than some godforsaken desert. Building a strong, respected place to call home doesn't work for you? How very Unamerican of you.
              • s
                s
                offline 11

                Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                Thu, March 27, 2008 - 2:24 PM
                <So maybe it would have been a little smarter to spend the $4,000,000,000,000 actually IN america, rather than some godforsaken desert. Building a strong, respected place to call home doesn't work for you? >


                that same old argument by liberals was used in the 60s: 'why are spending a kazillion doallrs to go to the moon, when we have all these poor people?"

                the moon was worth every dime and so is iraq!

                • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                  Thu, March 27, 2008 - 3:31 PM
                  Not really.

                  Iraq is a country.
                  Go look at a map.

                  The moon is a big thing, up there in the sky.

                  Not really the same.

                  Hey, NeoConed .... have you ever been overseas?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                    Fri, March 28, 2008 - 9:00 AM
                    ****************Not really.*************

                    Yes really.

                    *********Iraq is a country.
                    Go look at a map.************

                    There are time when your ability to state the obvious is simply breathtaking.
                    I'll bet you tell people that it's raining when they are already drenched.

                    While you are looking at that map - notice Iraq's location. It's the lynch pin of the orient. It is right smack dab in the middle.
                    If the tactical significance of that escapes you - - well - - then there isn't a whole lot of hope for you.

                    ********The moon is a big thing, up there in the sky.**********
                    telling the drenched people that it's raining again?

                    *********Not really the same.***********

                    Absolutely the same ins as far as the over net worth is a long lasting permanent value. Which I am sure you knew was the point.
                    Please tell me you aren't so stupid that you didn't know that, and you were merely trying to score some cheap rhetorical shots.


                    ***********Hey, NeoConed .... have you ever been overseas?*************

                    I rather suspect it'd surprise you who and what he is.
              • Re: 4,000 ..... and counting.

                Fri, March 28, 2008 - 9:34 AM
                *****************So maybe it would have been a little smarter to spend the $4,000,000,000,000 actually IN america, rather than some godforsaken desert. Building a strong, respected place to call home doesn't work for you? How very Unamerican of you.*************


                YA know this might be a great idea.

                So should we have nuked the orient? That would have been vastly cheaper easier and certainly more permanent.

                Imagine all of Afghanistan Iran Iraq Syria Jordan Lebanon Saudi Arabia Oman Quartar Kuwait and lets not forget north Africa all of it all one big sheet of ugly brown highly reflective silica glass four feet thick.
                Might even help with solar induced climate change reflecting all that energy back into space.

                Yah you may have just hit on the new wave of international diplomacy.

                DUKE NUKEM for President ~!!!

Recent topics in "The Conservative Point"